[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.

[Ragitsu]

My two €-cents:

1) There seems to be a lack of training on the part of US police officers. If you compare the number of people killed by police in the USA and Germany in the year 2013 you will find that US police killed about 320 people (Wikipedia), German police 19. Another number I found is 1,450.

Even if you break it down in relation to the different population size (350 Mio to 80 Mio) that is 3.7 times as many (or even 17 times!) killed by police.

I am not saying that all and every killing was unjustified, but the difference is astounding. Either Americans are much more violent than Germans and can only be stopped by deadly force, or US police is more trigger-happy.

2) The influx of military equipment and weapons seems to foster a more militaristic mind-set with cops.

3) That, coupled with ongoing military campaigns for the last 14 years plus the ongoing siege mentality in the US ("Terrorists are out to get us!") plus an ongoing class-warfare that keeps a lot of middle and working class Americans in a state of debt while lowering their incomes seem to make society more on edge. "More on edge" means that people (ordinary citizens, the underclass, the cops, politicians) may get the message: "They are out to get YOU! Don't give them a chance.

 

So, if you get ill-trained, gung-ho, financially insecure police officers in a society ripe with frustration in the street and they meet financially insecure, frustrated and potentially or seemingly violent people it is only a question of time and place when desasters will happen.

 

And I didn't even speak about the American obsession and proliferation of guns which makes it more likely for police to be shot at.

 

And I stayed clear of accusations of racism - mainly because I think it is more classism than racism: To my knowledge the people killed where more on the poorer side than on the well-to-do side of society (one a student, one a kid, one a family father trying to make a living by selling single cigarettes ina park). There is a strong correlation of being black and being poor in America (like in Germany with having Turkish roots and being a school-drop-out and poor).

 

That being said, I am assessing this from 8,000 miles afar - as a German.

 

You more or less hit all the right notes .

[Old Man]

Saying they should have determined if the gun was real or not before drawing their own is just naive. It takes less than a second to raise and fire a gun. We don't live in a wild west movie where cops are supposed to survive via their quick draw skills to "out draw" the bad guys. If someone is reported to be armed you aim your weapon at them and then determine if they are really armed.

We agree about how close they pulled up, but I blame the officer driving, who was a training officer no less, not the rookie who responded to the position his superior put him

 

As someone who played airsoft for quite some time, I can say that our club was pretty militant about making sure members kept their replicas in a case unless we were at a field or at home, for exactly this reason.  A cop who sees you waving what is designed to look exactly like a real gun around in public would be well within his rights to shoot you on sight.

 

That said, what's damning about this particular incident is the police report.  The responding officers originally claimed that they pulled up, talked to the kid for five minutes, and only opened fire when he became 'combative' and pointed the gun at them.  Then the surveillance video was released that showed their story was pretty much a complete fabrication.  If they didn't think they did anything wrong, why lie?

[bigbywolfe]

I'm not saying the cops did the right thing in that situation.  I even specifically condemned the driver for putting the rookie in that situation and the handling of the shooting in general.  My point was that saying cops need to determine if a weapon is real (and essentially giving a perp time to point it at them) before drawing their own weapon is absurd beyond all reason.

[Twilight]

I'm not saying the cops did the right thing in that situation.  I even specifically condemned the driver for putting the rookie in that situation and the handling of the shooting in general.  My point was that saying cops need to determine if a weapon is real (and essentially giving a perp time to point it at them) before drawing their own weapon is absurd beyond all reason.

They're also required to give the person a chance to put down their weapon, aren't they? No sarcasm here, I genuinely want to know.

[Twilight]

The number of people on Twitter who believe Garner got what he deserved or that the cop was right is truly disheartening.  I've blocked more people today then I have since I signed up for it.  The one that took the cake however, is the person who called me a heartless ****head for being disrespectful to the cop who murdered Eric Garner.  I'm quite proud of myself for getting through that without the use of swear words.

 

On the upside, the continued protests continue to be heartwarming.  Here's hoping they do some good.

[Pattern Ghost]

They're also required to give the person a chance to put down their weapon, aren't they? No sarcasm here, I genuinely want to know.

 

Not at all. If someone is pointing a weapon at you or drawing a weapon, you simply shoot them. Doing otherwise would be foolish. That said, there are situations where someone is armed but not immediately threatening someone's life, and where police have been able to talk them down or take them down without killing them. But in general, if an officer's life is under immediate threat, there won't be any warnings.

 

Not supporting the officers in the case under discussion, mind you.

[Twilight]

Not at all. If someone is pointing a weapon at you or drawing a weapon, you simply shoot them. Doing otherwise would be foolish.

 

Not supporting the officers in the case under discussion, mind you.

So they're not required to say "Police, put down your weapon" or words to that effect before opening fire? Not trying to be a dick here, I'm genuinely wondering if that's police policy in most cases.

[Twilight]

At the rate today is going, I should REALLY stop looking at Twitter.  I just got lamely insulted for giving somebody grief for their mockery of people supporting the Eric Garner protests.

[bigbywolfe]

They claim they yelled "show us your hands".  If a cop tells someone to show their hands, and that person reaches for their waistband/pocket that person is going to get shot, especially if the cops were told before hand the person had a gun.

Again, I'm not backing the cops in this case, though I think the driver is much more at blame even though he wasn't the one that shot. 

[Twilight]

They claim they yelled "show us your hands".  If a cop tells someone to show their hands, and that person reaches for their waistband/pocket that person is going to get shot, especially if the cops were told before hand the person had a gun.

 

Again, I'm not backing the cops in this case, though I think the driver is much more at blame even though he wasn't the one that shot. 

Is there any evidence that they actually did that? Normally I wouldn't be so skeptical but given the cops shot the kid, I think verification is needed in this case.

[bigbywolfe]

Why are you asking me?  You have the same sources on the internet that I have, and like I said, I am not supporting them.

[Twilight]

Why are you asking me?  You have the same sources on the internet that I have, and like I said, I am not supporting them.

I wouldn't even think of accusing you of that Bigby. 

[Pattern Ghost]

So they're not required to say "Police, put down your weapon" or words to that effect before opening fire? Not trying to be a dick here, I'm genuinely wondering if that's police policy in most cases.

 

In general, no. Nobody is required to do any such thing, whether a police officer or a civilian. The decision of whether to shoot or to order someone to drop their weapon lies solely with the officer, barring any departmental policies to the contrary.

 

Let me ask you this, since you made me answer your question twice: Do you think it should be a requirement, and if so, why?

[Twilight]

In general, no. Nobody is required to do any such thing, whether a police officer or a civilian. The decision of whether to shoot or to order someone to drop their weapon lies solely with the officer, barring any departmental policies to the contrary.

 

Let me ask you this, since you made me answer your question twice: Do you think it should be a requirement, and if so, why?

Well I always think police should be required to try and end a situation non-violently if possible.  Violence should never be the first option unless absolutely necessary. 

[sinanju]

They're also required to give the person a chance to put down their weapon, aren't they? No sarcasm here, I genuinely want to know.

 

Not really. No more so (or little more so) than an average citizen. If you reasonably* believe your life is in imminent danger, you have the right to use lethal force to protect yourself. EVEN IF YOU'RE WRONG, if your belief was reasonable, you haven't committed a crime. (You've probably committed a tort and can be sued into bankruptcy...but not a crime.) The issue is that many people, including myself, believe that too many cops have *unreasonable* perception of danger and are way too quick to shoot or use other levels of force than are called for.

 

A friend of mine who is a former cop and professional instructor in self-defense and rules of force, often said that the 3 primary rules for cops on the job are:

1. Come home alive at the end of your shift.

2. Do your job.

3. Don't get sued.

 

He also freely admitted that there were way too many cops for whom rule two was last on their list of priorities, if not completely dispensible. These last are at best a drag on the department, dead weight that everyone else has to carry. At worst, they're not only fearful, they're bullies.

[Twilight]

Thanks for answering the question Sinanju and Pattern Ghost.  Sorry if it feels like I'm pestering about this, I just want to make sure I have the facts right.

[gewing]

My two €-cents:

1) There seems to be a lack of training on the part of US police officers. If you compare the number of people killed by police in the USA and Germany in the year 2013 you will find that US police killed about 320 people (Wikipedia), German police 19. Another number I found is 1,450.

Even if you break it down in relation to the different population size (350 Mio to 80 Mio) that is 3.7 times as many (or even 17 times!) killed by police.

I am not saying that all and every killing was unjustified, but the difference is astounding. Either Americans are much more violent than Germans and can only be stopped by deadly force, or US police is more trigger-happy.

2) The influx of military equipment and weapons seems to foster a more militaristic mind-set with cops.

3) That, coupled with ongoing military campaigns for the last 14 years plus the ongoing siege mentality in the US ("Terrorists are out to get us!") plus an ongoing class-warfare that keeps a lot of middle and working class Americans in a state of debt while lowering their incomes seem to make society more on edge. "More on edge" means that people (ordinary citizens, the underclass, the cops, politicians) may get the message: "They are out to get YOU! Don't give them a chance.

 

So, if you get ill-trained, gung-ho, financially insecure police officers in a society ripe with frustration in the street and they meet financially insecure, frustrated and potentially or seemingly violent people it is only a question of time and place when desasters will happen.

 

And I didn't even speak about the American obsession and proliferation of guns which makes it more likely for police to be shot at.

 

And I stayed clear of accusations of racism - mainly because I think it is more classism than racism: To my knowledge the people killed where more on the poorer side than on the well-to-do side of society (one a student, one a kid, one a family father trying to make a living by selling single cigarettes ina park). There is a strong correlation of being black and being poor in America (like in Germany with having Turkish roots and being a school-drop-out and poor).

 

That being said, I am assessing this from 8,000 miles afar - as a German.

 

I have long suspected that a significant (no idea how large) number of incidents attributed to Racism are really more a matter of class bias.

 

Though with the former Aryan Nations compound under 60 miles away, I certainly can't claim Racism is dead. I wish I could write an obituary for it, but I try not to lie.

[gewing]

As someone who played airsoft for quite some time, I can say that our club was pretty militant about making sure members kept their replicas in a case unless we were at a field or at home, for exactly this reason.  A cop who sees you waving what is designed to look exactly like a real gun around in public would be well within his rights to shoot you on sight.

 

That said, what's damning about this particular incident is the police report.  The responding officers originally claimed that they pulled up, talked to the kid for five minutes, and only opened fire when he became 'combative' and pointed the gun at them.  Then the surveillance video was released that showed their story was pretty much a complete fabrication.  If they didn't think they did anything wrong, why lie?

I hadn't heard they had claimed 5 minutes. They are phuqued. Even if the rookie legitimately thought it was a real gun, and his life was in danger, that is a blatant lie. Just like flight implies guilt, so does lying in an official report.

 

As far as I know. I have been wrong before and will be again, I am sure.

[薔薇語]

Just because I am sure some people haven't heard the 911 call or seen the footage of the police murdering the boy, here it is:

 

 

The Cops lied in their report. The cops were reckless on this video. And the total time between seeing the cop car come into frame and there being a dead boy is less than 5 seconds. Those cops came for blood then lied about it hoping that no one would question their 'authoritah'. They are despicable people. And yet somehow we are suppose to believe them when they say "he reached into his waist band? And to me it looks more like the kid dropped to the ground before the cops even finished stopping their car. 

 

I hope those cops get their trial and go to jail. If they don't, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a real rise in the number of riots.

 

La Rose. 

[Pattern Ghost]

Thanks for answering the question Sinanju and Pattern Ghost.  Sorry if it feels like I'm pestering about this, I just want to make sure I have the facts right.

 

No worries.

[薔薇語]

They claim they yelled "show us your hands".  If a cop tells someone to show their hands, and that person reaches for their waistband/pocket that person is going to get shot, especially if the cops were told before hand the person had a gun.

 

Again, I'm not backing the cops in this case, though I think the driver is much more at blame even though he wasn't the one that shot. 

 

 

I realize you are trying to walk the fine line of not defending these cops and trying to tell the other side, but I don't think it is working well. Those cops most certainly did not say jack S* to the boy their murdered. There wasn't enough time between them stopping their car and them murdering that boy for them do have done anything other than pull a trigger. They were / are trigger happy murderers who have been given license to kill us at will and somehow the public still stands with them. Sad day for America. 

 

La Rose. 

[bigbywolfe]

Rose, any idea why the video is edited?  There is a time jump around 1:22.  That's before the cops show up, but makes me wonder about the integrity of the video in general.

[bigbywolfe]

I realize you are trying to walk the fine line of not defending these cops and trying to tell the other side, but I don't think it is working well. First, those cops most certainly did not say jack S* to the boy their murdered. There wasn't enough time between them stopping their car and them murdering that boy for them do have done anything other than pull a trigger. They were / are trigger happy murderers who have been given license to kill us at will and somehow the public still stands with them. Sad day for America. 

 

La Rose. 

I didn't say they did.  I said they claimed they did.  There is a very big difference.  

 

And statements like "cops shouldn't even draw their weapon until they know if someone else has a weapon" is still simply wrong.  Pointing that out is not defending these particular cops.

  

[薔薇語]

The video is edited because of the time lapse between the call and the arrival of the police. 

 

La Rose. 

[薔薇語]

I didn't say they did.  I said they claimed they did.  There is a very big difference.

 

And I never said that you said that. You presented a claim and I shot that claim down. That is all. 

 

La Rose.