Hermit Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I've heard that the girl in the desk threw the first punch and hit the cop in the head. Anyone know if that's true or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Pattern Ghosr, he didn't do things how he was trained, that's why he was fired. When apprehending a suspect, once physical contact is made you maintain control of the individual until they are secure. You never let the person go unless you have to for your own safety because they have a weapon or something. The officer literally THREW her away from himself, not to the ground, to the other side of the room so he had to walk over to her before cuffing her. In no world is that a reasonable response, and it completely violates their training, he increased her chance of injury and did not maintain control of the suspect both while he was in no danger. Cygnia, Andrew_A and Twilight 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 http://boingboing.net/2015/10/29/lawsuit-homophobic-hawaii-cop.html Andrew_A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Pattern Ghosr, he didn't do things how he was trained, that's why he was fired. When apprehending a suspect, once physical contact is made you maintain control of the individual until they are secure. You never let the person go unless you have to for your own safety because they have a weapon or something. The officer literally THREW her away from himself, not to the ground, to the other side of the room so he had to walk over to her before cuffing her. In no world is that a reasonable response, and it completely violates their training, he increased her chance of injury and did not maintain control of the suspect both while he was in no danger. Was the stated reason for firing him related to his training? I figured he was 1) trying to keep her away from the desk and 2) trying to do things quickly out of apprehension of interference. I don't think it was perfect, but I think he had reasons. As far as training goes, that's going to depend on the department/state. Using speed and overwhelming force is certainly an element of yanking someone out of a vehicle, for example. (YouTube should have at least a few examples of people being pulled out of their car window by the head to see what I'm talking about.) Losing immediate control of her is an issue, but he's a huge ape man, and may have tossed her further than he expected, who knows? If it was against what he was trained to do, both in academy and on the job, and if he was guilty of having done it before -- including to a pregnant woman according to one report -- then why wasn't he fired before? My guess is his department trains their officers to be aggressive and respond with overwhelming force, whether it's official doctrine or not. I'm not seeing him being deliberately cruel or abusive, just being over-aggressive, and perhaps going to physical contact too soon, which a lot of departments condone. Edit: Just rewatched one of the clips. "To the other side of the room" took him exactly one step to cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 If it was against what he was trained to do, both in academy and on the job, and if he was guilty of having done it before -- including to a pregnant woman according to one report -- then why wasn't he fired before? My guess is his department trains their officers to be aggressive and respond with overwhelming force, whether it's official doctrine or not. I'm not seeing him being deliberately cruel or abusive, just being over-aggressive, and perhaps going to physical contact too soon, which a lot of departments condone. First time on video. Police takes the word of a cop over the "bad kid" that was doing something wrong. Not really hard to understand. There is currently a completely separate law suit against him going on. EDIT: And my comments about taking down a suspect echo the statement his police chief (or was it sheriff?) said when stating why he was fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I've heard that the girl in the desk threw the first punch and hit the cop in the head. Anyone know if that's true or not? Tried to watch a couple of videos to see this. It looks like she leans away from him at one point, then the camera dips down then back up. Nothing showing her punching at him in the videos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 First time on video. Police takes the word of a cop over the "bad kid" that was doing something wrong. Not really hard to understand. There is currently a completely separate law suit against him going on. EDIT: And my comments about taking down a suspect echo the statement his police chief (or was it sheriff?) said when stating why he was fired. I'm pretty sure that the guy was being a d-bag and deserved to be fired in this case. I was pretty sure of that in the first place. But the thread is about police brutality. I'm not sure that this is a case of brutality, just stupidity. If the girl was injured, sure. If I had to peel her out*, I'd probably use pain compliance to get the job done, which would be safer for her, but ultimately, well, more painful. Here's the reason he really needs to be fired, IMO: In the interview with one of the students that was recording, the student states that another girl said something along the lines of the officer's actions being unnecessary. That second girl was also arrested. That's an outright abuse of authority, and an unlawful arrest IMO. He needs to be brought up on charges for that one. Thanks for the follow up info. *Note: That's a big "if." I arrested dozens of people as an MP, and only had to use force twice, and only any significant level of force one of those times. I used my words, first. Wish they would teach more LEOs to do that these days, especially in situations like this where the girl wasn't being a threat to anyone to start with. Edit 2: Well, by "force" I meant physical force. There were felony arrests where I held the subjects at gunpoint as per procedure, but those were a different sort of force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Evil police officer entraps motorists by dressing as a homeless man. http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/29/police-officer-dresses-like-homeless-man/ I mean the gall of those people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I get you are being sarcastic, but what is your point Nolgroth? What does that article have to do with this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 It is to point out that, despite the overwhelmingly tiny percentage of corrupt and truly evil police officers (and even that tiny percentage is still way more than I would like to believe) there are still an overwhelming majority of decent, professional police officers that are fighting the good fight and doing well by their communities. Besides, a little sarcastic levity really never hurts when the torches are being lit and the pitchforks are being sharpened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 So your point was to enter a discussion about a serious and systematic problem in our culture and downplay the seriousness and pervasiveness of said problem? Sounds more like an attempt at satire gone wrong than "levity". Andrew_A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted October 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Besides, a little sarcastic levity really never hurts when the torches are being lit and the pitchforks are being sharpened. I get that you're not serious, but...taxpayers raising legitimate concerns about a function of government with the power to end lives (be it literally, or effectively) that is increasingly revealed to be abusing it's power and generally averse to greater transparency in public matters are hardly a medieval Transylvanian mob. Now, if you want to discuss folks saying "kill all police" or "get rid of publicly funded police", then i'll be right there with you. The officer in this video got fired. His chief said that he couldn't have his officers throwing people across the room like that. CES That's good to hear. I don't know if anyone else in most any other profession would get off with just being fired and not having formal charges pressed against them, but at least it's a clear message that behavior of that sort has no place in an institution we should feel fully comfortable with. Andrew_A and bigbywolfe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 That's good to hear. I don't know if anyone else in most any other profession would get off with just being fired and not having formal charges pressed against them, but at least it's a clear message that behavior of that sort has no place in an institution we should feel fully comfortable with. If I tried that here in the office I'd go to jail and the company would be hit with a thermonuclear lawsuit that'd leave nothing but a smoking hole in the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 So your point was to enter a discussion about a serious and systematic problem in our culture and downplay the seriousness and pervasiveness of said problem? Sounds more like an attempt at satire gone wrong than "levity". A matter of opinion. I personally see this particular thread as social commentary gone wrong. The media posts something and, right or wrong, the police officer(s) involved are judged by the court of public opinion long before the actual facts of a case are in. Are there bad cops? Absolutely. Do we, as a society need to address that? Absolutely. A thread where every linked story is instantly accepted as gospel truth before the evidence hits is not addressing it. Threads like this are not part of the solution. It is part of creating an "us vs. them" mentality towards an entire class of our society. That's not going to fix this problem. It is part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I was not there. I did not see it happen. I do not have a context to judge the Police Officer. Understanding the situation requires background information. QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted October 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 A matter of opinion. I personally see this particular thread as social commentary gone wrong. The media posts something and, right or wrong, the police officer(s) involved are judged by the court of public opinion long before the actual facts of a case are in. Are there bad cops? Absolutely. Do we, as a society need to address that? Absolutely. A thread where every linked story is instantly accepted as gospel truth before the evidence hits is not addressing it. Threads like this are not part of the solution. It is part of creating an "us vs. them" mentality towards an entire class of our society. That's not going to fix this problem. It is part of it. I've seen dissenting opinions (mostly minor, but they exist) on particular stories and further explanations given/requested here. Automatic echo-chamber, this is not. A place to highlight and converse about a specific societal ill, it is. You've also got police officers of all ranks, current and former, speaking out against extreme behavior. The comfortable "us versus them" division is not as sharply definite as some people think. Plus, if that were really such an elephant-in-the-room (at least here), we wouldn't be asking for competent and empathetic law-enforcers instead of asking for their total removal. bigbywolfe and Pattern Ghost 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Maybe so. I will say two things and then I am out. The first and most important one is that I should not have posted while being in a bad mood already. It never turns out how I want it to. The second thing is that I still stand by my statement above. All I see is outrage without action. To me that equates to nothing more than complaining. The difference between last night and now is that I am not emotionally compromised. If you want to complain or whatever catch phrase you want to use to describe it, I really don't have a right to intrude. I apologize for my presumption in that regard. I still disagree with the overwhelming sentiment in this thread, but then, I don't have to read it. I wish you all a safe Halloween weekend. Pattern Ghost 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I respect your conviction even if I may not agree with your opinion. Folks complain about fumbles in football games, They complain about how a beloved character is being written in current comic books. They complain about a lot of unimportant things. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that they'd also complain about the big stuff too. Some on this thread might be doing more than that for all we know. Protesting, writing emails, or even just trying to learn more about the specifics of each situation. The last, I know that more than one has done. We're not just 'OMG! RAAAAGE' We're "WTF? Wait, how did ...." and that quest for knowledge aspect of it renders it more than simple complaint imo. We're not instantly accepting things. For example, I recently asked for verification if anyone had heard that girl in the most recent incident had thrown the first punch, to my mind something that might explain (even if it might not excuse) the escalation. But innocent people are dying, and some not so innocent are dying when even if they are scum, they didn't deserve it. Complaining about it might not get a damn thing done, but it's a lot better than sticking our heads in the sand I think. If some cop is being railroaded unfairly, I want to hear about it. I really do, just like if some citizen is set up for a fall for something he or she didn't do either, I want to know. But I'm not going to learn diddly about the truth by closing my eyes and wishing the bad news away. That's my take on it, and I know you have yours which I can respect. Cygnia, pinecone, bigbywolfe and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Was the girl injured? I haven't seen any reports on that one mentioning injuries. From the video, the flipping her out of the desk and onto the floor looks brutal, but the mount to cuff her doesn't look dangerous. He's straddling her, not putting a knee in her neck or spine, which is a good thing. As far as getting her out of the desk -- and away from it so she can't cling to it -- I don't know if there's a better method. If you try to go slow, you're going to increase the risk of injury to both parties. So, what do you do with a student who's disrupting the class and refuses to leave or to comply with the school resource officer? We only see the physical removal, but we don't see if the officer made any effort to verbally persuade her to comply. We do know that she already refused to comply with the teacher's attempt to enforce the school's rules. This incident was entirely avoidable by the student. She gets no sympathy from me. I'm unwilling to condemn the officer based on the video or the news reports. If she comes up with any injuries from the arm lock (hyper-extended shoulder, torn muscles, etc.), then I'd call it excessive. If she comes up with a bump to the head because he tossed her desk, well, my dad has a saying for that one: If you're gonna be dumb, you've gotta be tough. She was using the desk to avoid complying with the officer, and she's responsible for the consequences of that choice. I have not watched the video. With my newish job and commute, have not had much time available. One claim I heard on the radio was that the student in some manner struck the officer. Is this accurate? If so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 http://boingboing.net/2015/10/29/lawsuit-homophobic-hawaii-cop.html THAT is gonna cost him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 I have not watched the video. With my newish job and commute, have not had much time available. One claim I heard on the radio was that the student in some manner struck the officer. Is this accurate? If so... I can't see her striking him in any of the videos, but the videos also don't show everything. One student who took one of them said the officer was in the room for three minutes before he started recording. (He started recording when he thought things were going downhill.) He didn't mention any striking. There is also a second or two when the phone is pointed down, before the girl is yanked out of the desk. So, impossible to say at this juncture. I'm going to guess that it's a rumor, else with that many witnesses, there would have probably been some corroboration by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 I've only seen one video where she seems to hit him at all. It happens when he wraps his arm around her head and she appears to hit him on the shoulder, though it looks a bit like flailing and is at almost the exact same time that she tips over backward. Despite claims I can't find a single video that shows her "punching him in the head". She didn't want to leave and probably did fight when he tried to remove her. People keep pointing that out like it justifies his actions. It doesn't. At the very least is was a really, really bad take down. At the worst it is what it looks like, a cop ignoring all procedure and literally throwing a disturbed teenager across a room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Police department training with nunchucks. I can see how they'd be a useful control weapon, but they're also notorious on the list of things 14 year old boys fantasize about using recklessly. http://news.yahoo.com/video/california-police-department-training-nunchucks-110112760.html I can't tell if this is a stupid idea or an idiotic idea. Nunchaku are lethal enough, but they also require a ton of training to avoid hitting one's self constantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 We need more of this and fewer tasers/batons/firearms reached for/pulled out straightaway. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11964823/Moment-Oklahoma-city-police-officer-punches-student-in-the-face.html Good grief, Charlie Brown! Again, for more than one reason, I hate seeing kids getting attacked due to "transgressions" of this nature. Hermit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Impudite Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I can't tell if this is a stupid idea or an idiotic idea. Nunchaku are lethal enough, but they also require a ton of training to avoid hitting one's self constantly. Usually in the family jewels... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0tBMNNOA18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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