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[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.


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I'm not going to try to get into an argument on this.  I'm just going to state things as I see them.  It will be kinda long.  I am a defense attorney and was a public defender for nearly a decade.  So

I'm glad we have a police viewpoint in here.  One of the scoutmasters in our troop is a long time cop, and he has the best stories.  He's also apologetic for the bad apples and "bad shoots" that we us

My point is that it shouldn't matter if the boys in blue are chatting up Beelzebub out for a Sunday stroll; the actions of the person being questioned/stopped are what ought to matter. Putting that as

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1 hour ago, Starlord said:

 

I will always agree that more training is helpful.  However, I don't believe Scandinavian countries are good examples to use for the subject of police brutality.  As I understand it, they have little to no racial, ethnic or cultural divisions whatsoever in the past or present.  Nor do they even deal with sticky immigration or refugee issues such as Germany.  These are massive underlying causes of the problem.  Also, more training does not fix the main factor - abusive and/or flat out bad cops are almost completely untouchable thanks to police unions, lobbyists and internal politics.

This is no longer true. The population have shifted thanks to immigration. The biggest cities have districts that non whites are in the super majority. Adding to different culture you also have language barriers and other things. Training, funding and massive democratic oversight is absolutely necessary. And defending the police and leave the law to local councils who select themselves would be disaster.

Even here however police violence can be a thing. Once a guy almost died from being chocked out but the police did not how to do cpr and managed to save his life. He lost 35 percent working capacity but he is not dead. Policing is ugly and brutal no matter what but the alternative is worse! 

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7 minutes ago, Trencher said:

And defending the police and leave the law to local councils who select themselves would be disaster.

 

7 minutes ago, Trencher said:

And defending the police ... would be disaster.

 

In this context, "defending" and "defunding" are polar opposites. I would agree with you if you meant "defending" :cheers:.

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58 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Yes, this nation harbors a deeply anti-intellectual sentiment; unless you're coincidentally attractive or wealthy, people rarely want to listen to what you have to say. I could expound upon this statement, but I am tired of rehashing the same points and I don't want to delve into politics (more than I already have...I broke my own rule). That said, if comedians are using their powers for good rather than (purely) profit, I am fine with their actions. It should be noted that the most effective comedy often contains a hearty kernel of truth.

 

Half truths do have a kernel of truth. But by setting himself up as an authority in practice but not in a manner that makes him take any responsibility for what he is saying because he is "just a comedian" have a long term negative effect that cannot be ignored! Enough already! This guy can take his sanctimonious lying ass straight to hell for all I care!

And you know who can join him? Those low brow but try to feign wisdom by saying the most obvious truisms guys who run the South Park show! Sure they are right about a lot of stuff just like this comedian but when everything is drenched in a cynical funny ha ha crap then you loose track of what is important, what is ideal and what is true and humane! To hell with them too! Even though I will admit they dont lie as much as that comedian dude. 

As for my anti communist spiel its based on a historic precedent. 

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32 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Oliver's show does more real journalism than most TV news these days. It's got a team of journalists researching the segments.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Oliver#Influence_and_the_"John_Oliver_effect"

No they do enough research to say whatever they want to imply, or what mood they want to create or what spiel they want to throw at you sound plausible but they are not journalists because they dont care about truth they only care about the SEMBLANCE of truth a veneer that they can sell to people who like to sound smart. And then you add the comedy as an convenient absolution of responsibility and you have a social disaster. It brought Donald Trump into the white house and it created the idea that every American lives in an action movie and no matter what you do it is justifiable because you are the hero. 

31 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Funnily enough, in the United States of America (the last true bastion of freedom), academics are often labeled "Communist" or "Marxist' by those that are scared of their knowledge or - more specifically - the implications of their knowledge becoming assimilated by the masses.

Communists have developed tactics for taking over academia using social pressure and exclusions to do so.

Off course right wingers use the fact that there are communists in academia to discredit the idea of academia itself. Because they themselves are very often anti intellectual and want a society where knowledge is the purview of the rich and powerful and their chosen servants. 

This does not hamper the communists though if anything it helps them as it makes academia feel hunted by "the outside" making the environment ripe for indoctrination into the cult.

Which is what communism is.

18 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

If those who are not experts should have no voice, what does that suggest about the merits of allowing everyone to vote? 

 

Or even freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech yes.

Have voice yes.

Be listened to yes.

Be able to vote yes.

Be given the benefit of trust when they are speaking from the position of being a minority of some kind and they speak from their perspective yes.

Be allowed to dominate the conversation completely by pretending to be knowledgeable while making everything a cynical joke, avoiding intellectual responsibility and cultivate a veneer of trustworthyness to make your half truths and outright lies easier to swallow? NO!

 

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55 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

If what John Oliver is saying should not be listened to because he's an entertainer by profession, rather than an academically-credited authority on whatever subject he's discussing, then there's no point in listening to or reading practically anything posted by anyone here, including yourself.

Touche.

 

But I will point out that there re some differences. I am just a guy on a forum he has a whole set up created by staff and designers to make him look like an authority on whatever subject he will talk about this time.  And I am taken to task by you guys. While his program and his message is designed to have him be met by delighted laughter and clapping. Giving us the viewer a subconscious message of him being "the leader of the pack" and someone to be listened to. While my posts are an invitation to come up with some counter argument. 

 

What really really burns my hide though and why I get so angry at this smug douche is that he preys on peoples desire to feel smart. By saying things in a certain way and by presenting his joke as "laugh here to show that you are smart enough to get it" rather than being actually funny is very very annoying!

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1 minute ago, Pariah said:

I feel we have begun to drift off azimuth here. A lot of the last two pages of posts really should be in the Politics thread.

Ok I am done anyway I am going to go for a walk and have an ice cream.  Sorry for getting ranty but there is a lot of negativity going around. 

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The man provided bias training. I don't know that this was a problem with bias.

 

He joined protestors. The police had orders to clear the protestors out. The police procedures for following that order included rubber bullets. I don't know that they are pelting black people worse than white people.

 

So, this may not be a bias issue. We can talk about when protestors should be cleared out, and what methods the police may use. That's different.

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2 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Oliver's show does more real journalism than most TV news these days. It's got a team of journalists researching the segments.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Oliver#Influence_and_the_"John_Oliver_effect"

 

John Oliver tilts pretty hard to the left, but I enjoy the show because he presents view points I generally disagree with in a highly entertaining fashion.

 

I can watch one of his shows and actually think through the position presented and do a little digging and enjoy the process.

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6 hours ago, Trencher said:

Sorry that is getting an automatic downvote. 

The reason USA is in the dire straights it is in is that you started to listen to comedians take on politics instead of academics in the first place. 

 

I don't disagree that I feel like some comedians are problematic to listen to.  A lot of 'new news sources' online feel that way to me, however.  When it's an issue I haven't heard of and am concerned about, I can do research online to see more on the topic.

 

3 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Oliver's show does more real journalism than most TV news these days. It's got a team of journalists researching the segments.

 

Unfortunately, which is probably why I need to drink more tonight.  XD

 

3 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

Funnily enough, in the United States of America (the last true bastion of freedom), academics are often labeled "Communist" or "Marxist' by those that are scared of their knowledge or - more specifically - the implications of their knowledge becoming assimilated by the masses.

 

Exactly.  It's gotten to the point where people are calling their own ideas Communist or Marxist in direct retaliation or misguided understanding from those scared people.  Look at the 'satanist' groups in the US.

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If those who are not experts should have no voice, what does that suggest about the merits of allowing everyone to vote? 

 

I don't know about that.  But having non-experts highlight issues isn't wrong in itself, we just have to make sure Oliver holds to a good standard of information... so I can start holding some other #$(*$ers to that same standard.  "opinion journalists" indeed.

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'."

 

- Isaac Asimov

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4 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

John Oliver tilts pretty hard to the left, but I enjoy the show because he presents view points I generally disagree with in a highly entertaining fashion.

 

Agreed. Then again, unbiased journalism is as rare as hen's teeth these days so I'd expect most folks to have their filters on. I don't always agree with his talking points, but his fact checking is usually on or above par.

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45 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Agreed. Then again, unbiased journalism is as rare as hen's teeth these days so I'd expect most folks to have their filters on. I don't always agree with his talking points, but his fact checking is usually on or above par.

 

That is good (on his fact checking).  Before anything else, knowing the details is important :)

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14 hours ago, Trencher said:

Sorry that is getting an automatic downvote. 

The reason USA is in the dire straights it is in is that you started to listen to comedians take on politics instead of academics in the first place. 

Even if what that chuckleduck is saying is true its part of the problem. 

He should hide in shame not talk. He ruined a country. 

Edit: Not alone obviously. 

 

If John Oliver provokes such a rant as a comedian, what is your opinion of the "journalists" doing opinion shows on FOX News. 

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There's _so much_ nonversation [sic] about the pros and cons of recruiting and training and what-not.

 

I'm not an expert.  Amazingly, all of a sudden, everyone else on the internet is.  I am not attracted to sounds bites and having things distilled into five-statement "bits" on Family Guy or any of that.

 

Frankly, I don't have _time_ to become an expert, even if the interest is there.

 

However, I do know the things I have seen:

 

The police hit the streets with enough military and tactical crap to embarrass Batman.  Then they pump each other up into frenzy macho mode and beat up normal, everyday people.  What I see the most of is 'roid-ed out commandos beating up on normal folks.  You never see them want to tackle even an un-armored powerlifter, for some reason.

 

I see footage of the National Guard here and there, throughout the decades-- rarely with serious protective gear, and most of that footage is from the modern era.

 

I see footage of the US Military in freakin' _war zones_ interacting with potentially hostile civilians.

 

The only people I see tightening up their jackboots and waxing up their government-issue skull bats are the police.

 

The National Guard interacts with the crowds, discourages them, firmly, but always carefully, as respectfully as possible.

 

The Military footage shows a similar respect for even potential enemies!  Concern and compassion for other people, even when they know there is real danger.

 

The police high-five each other after punching a ninety-pound college girl in the face.

 

 

A military raid sees men putting their lives in danger, securing a facility, and reacting with lethal violence _only_ after encountering lethal violence.

 

The police send fifteen men and a battering ram into a single-family home in their own hometown and kill two people-- the first one in a recliner and Grandma watching TV in bed.  I don't think there's a dog over five pounds that has _ever_ survived a no-knock warrant.  Damned few non-whites do, and not even _all_ whites survive them.

 

 

We can't even _pretend_ that intense, non-stop training doesn't make a difference.

 

 

Here's another part of the problem:

 

You can't draft someone into the police force.  Every single well-armed, armored, club-wielding muscle-bound thug authorized to cause as much physical trauma to middle-aged housewives, college kids, and elderly men is on this job because he _wants_ a job that provides him the authority to do all those things.  He might not want that authority, but he wants a job that comes with it.  How many are attracted just because that authority comes with it?  Fame Hollywood bully Steven Segal?  Guess what he does for a living.....

 

 

At the very least, we should probably eliminate the requirement that they have to fail two psycho-social evaluations to qualify.  :rolleyes:

 

Screening.

 

Training.

 

Screening.

 

Training.

 

And more training.

 

Never stop training.

 

With something other than a pillow case full of oranges, I mean.

 

 

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I would add (in multiple places there) one other thing: evaluation.

 

It's a high-stress job.  For most people, you can only do that stuff for so long before the edge comes off in some way.  There also ought be a role for those assessed no longer really in mental condition to carry out that job right.  As in, job security for police, but you get moved to a role where it's not your job to wear a sidearm, restraints, nightstick, etc., and face people who may turn violent with little warning; and that post-stress position doesn't have a negative association with it.  These are structural changes, I admit, but there's a lot of call for structural changes now, and I think there's ways to to take care of people better on both sides of the badge.

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2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I'm not an expert.  Amazingly, all of a sudden, everyone else on the internet is.

 

Among the many straining to add their voices to the choir, there may not be a relatively high percentage of officially recognized experts (as such), but we've all heard from/read experts that repeatedly state the ways in which we can begin to fix at least two major overt societal ills which plague our nation: namely, mass shootings and police brutality. Years have passed (the Rodney King incident will have transpired thirty years ago before you know it) and shockingly little has been sincerely addressed by those in authority. There is nothing "all of a sudden" about the sentiments expressed during this latest attempt at a meaningful social movement.

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1 hour ago, BNakagawa said:

https://news.wbfo.org/post/evicted-former-police-officer-claims-retaliation

 

The police are a gang and anyone that turns on one of them is lucky if all they get is fired.

 

Yes.  The police _are_ a gang.

 

Here's a great example:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/05/police-violence-cliques-and-secret-tattoos-fears-rise-over-la-sheriff-gangs

 

 

And there are others, if you care to look for them: actual gangs forming _inside_ law enforcement, complete with brandings /tattoos /social orders and hierarchies, and all of them engaging in gang-like behavior, particularly where that includes violence.  The problems with law-enforcement are _huge_, always have been, and will continue to be ignored as soon as "it all dies down a bit."

 

 

46 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Among the many straining to add their voices to the choir, there may not be a relatively high percentage of officially recognized experts (as such), but we've all heard from/read experts that repeatedly state the ways in which we can begin to fix at least two major overt societal ills which plague our nation: namely, mass shootings and police brutality. Years have passed (the Rodney King incident will have transpired thirty years ago before you know it) and shockingly little has been sincerely addressed by those in authority. There is nothing "all of a sudden" about the sentiments expressed during this latest attempt at a meaningful social movement.

 

All of a sudden people are talking about it again.

 

All of a sudden everyone wants to say something.

 

All of a sudden it's on the front page.

 

 

is it new?  No.  All this excitement and commotion seems to come around every couple of decades-- 

 

and absolutely _nothing_ happens, and everyone goes on to become experts on whatever new thing TV tells them to love.

 

I have made no mistakes and told no lies.  I _am_ actively pissed, because this is something I've been active against since I was damn near killed by two Treutlin County officers back in '82.  Fortunately, they decided cracking my skull and leaving me unconscious beside the road, kicking over my bike, and stealing a "portable computer" (we didn't quite have "laptops" yet) was sufficient.  So yeah-- instant experts on this kind of piss me off.  Do I appreciate that it's yet again in the public eye?  Yes.  Do I hope something will come of it?  Yes.  Have I seen it go around enough to have absolutely no expectations of anything coming of it?  Also yes.

 

I've said these before-- here, as well, if I'm not mistaken:

 

If you're a cop, doing cop things, it's called Maintaining The Thin Blue Line.

 

If you're not a cop, doing cop things, it's called Accessory After the Fact.

 

"No-Knock" means "No Survivors."

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