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[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.


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I'm not going to try to get into an argument on this.  I'm just going to state things as I see them.  It will be kinda long.  I am a defense attorney and was a public defender for nearly a decade.  So

I'm glad we have a police viewpoint in here.  One of the scoutmasters in our troop is a long time cop, and he has the best stories.  He's also apologetic for the bad apples and "bad shoots" that we us

My point is that it shouldn't matter if the boys in blue are chatting up Beelzebub out for a Sunday stroll; the actions of the person being questioned/stopped are what ought to matter. Putting that as

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6 hours ago, Badger said:

I didn't like the way the statues were removed, though. From purely historical viewpoint. Needed to be locked away in a museum to  be shown as an example of our mistakes.  The people of 1000 years will be all the dumber for our actions this week.

 

The more info the more truth you learn from history. I feel more like I am watching a modern version of a book burning.  Remove from public view, 100 percent.  To destroy is unforgivable. 

 

History is a subject I have passion for, like I find many of you here have for science. This has not been a good week in that sense.

 

 

 

There were plenty of opportunities to take the statues down, and move them somewhere suitable (wherever that was).

 

I also find your comparison to book-burning to be rather disingenuous. These statues weren't meant to record events. They were to remind a subjugated people who was really in charge. They deserve to be destroyed.

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7 hours ago, Badger said:

 

 

History is a subject I have passion for, like I find many of you here have for science. This has not been a good week in that sense.

 

 

This is good to hear, and if there is one consolation to take from the events of the last few weeks, it is the expected upsurge in funding for museums,archives and field archaeology that will follow from this belated realisation of the importance of history.

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7 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

It can be good to vent a little, sometimes. I was just pointing out that you were getting a little personal there with a fellow Herophile. We may not always see eye to eye on the boards, but we tend to be a good gang all around, so I'm more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

I'm former military LE. When folks start swinging too broad a brush around about the military or about the police, I'm likely to get splattered, even though my active service days are long gone. :D

I am a veteran, and worked for 18 years enforcing laws, I know that most of the great guys I worked with were scum. They all knew if they pulled crap around me They were done. I was hated and feared. Not by citizens though.

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11 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Or it could mean that they work with other good cops. Not every police force is corrupt, abusive, or incompetent.

 

Firstly, I feel like most cops are just people willing to do a very difficult, unpleasant and dangerous job.

 

Most of them are trying to make a positive difference.  Even the ones breaking some rules are a net positive.

 

It is unreasonable for us to expect perfection from the police force as it is comprised of human beings.  Medical errors kill around 250,000 people per year.  Excessively aggressive cops killing 55 unarmed people (32 if you remove the ones fleeing) is dramatically lower than this and yet I don't see protests against doctors and nurses or ex-military snipers sitting on roof tops gunning down paramedics.

 

I knew a cop many years ago and he openly admitted to helping himself to a flat screen TV they found when arresting a guy in a van with stack of stolen TV sets.  Straight up theft.  Wrong through and through.

And yet, even this guy, was doing more good than bad.

 

What I liked about the initial protests is it got the dirt bag that killed George Floyd and his police buddies charged.  This is a good thing.   Accountability is key.  One of the key grievances with police is their unwillingness to deal with their own problem members.  The number of police killed, fired or suicided because they reported on problem cops in their own department is disgusting.

 

There are also high-level policy changes that need to happen (4th amendment is still law) and the absolutely murderous no-knock plain clothes raids have got to stop - immediately.

 

Improvements in initial screening and self-monitoring and dealing with problem police are things we desperately need, but the idea that all cops are bad is crazy.  If Minneapolis succeeds in removing it's police department you are going to see some insane Mad Max level violence.

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11 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

I knew a cop many years ago and he openly admitted to helping himself to a flat screen TV they found when arresting a guy in a van with stack of stolen TV sets.  Straight up theft.  Wrong through and through.

And yet, even this guy, was doing more good than bad.

 

"Goodness" isn't some scale you can balance at your convenience. Life isn't a video game where you can do good deeds and then engage in thievery on the side while keeping an eye on a karma/reputation meter. I wouldn't expect this behavior from my offspring and I certainly don't want to see it in people armed with a badge and gun.

 

11 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

 

the idea that all cops are bad is crazy.

 

It is also a non-issue and a distraction. As has been pointed out, if you cover up a problem, you are part of the problem: not as bad as the principal offender, but still preventing the pursuit of justice.

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12 hours ago, pinecone said:

The image of armed and armored thugs shoving a 75 year old man down, then walking past as his blood formed a pool is burned into my memory. Where was the "good" cop?

He was the one that stopped and looked like he was going to help Martin Gugino for a second. One of the jackbooted enforcers he was in the midst of stepped in and nipped that in the bud PDQ.

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20 hours ago, Badger said:

I didn't like the way the statues were removed, though. From purely historical viewpoint. Needed to be locked away in a museum to  be shown as an example of our mistakes.  The people of 1000 years will be all the dumber for our actions this week.

 

 

 

Good God!

 

I think you may have stumbled on to what's wrong with us today!   

 

What were we destroying and denying the existence of a thousand years ago?  It might explain _a lot_...    

 

(no snark!  That was a genuine flash of inspiration, and I thank you for it)

 

 

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13 hours ago, pinecone said:

respect is earned.

 

There are two roads to respect:

 

You can command it through action, courage, morality, and purpose.

 

You can demand it with brute force and subjugation.

 

You cannot pull it from anyone you wish, simply because you think you deserve it.  As many protestors have proclaimed throughout history, a body can be jailed, beaten, and destroyed. But it is up the mind to decide if it ever gives in.  If you want respect from me, you will have to command it, because I refuse to give it to someone so small-minded and insignificant as to think he can demand it.

 

These guys here:

 

62GYiMw.jpeg

 

 

They command it!  They have seen up-close how our police are using their products, and have refused to allow it to continue.  They have set a bar against which other suppliers may be morally judged.  Sure, we'll buy this stuff somewhere else, and continue to shoot people in the FACE with tear-gas canisters.  But it won't be their equipment that we are using.  It will be someone else, who isn't bothered by the terroristic ways in which their equipment is being used.

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, pinecone said:

People who act like animals Should be viewed as a danger to society.

 

People who act like animals _are_ a danger to society.  That's the whole reason we wanted police in the first place!  Dear _GOD_ do I hate to use this, the most over-quoted, weakened-through-excessive-over-use cliche of all time, but who DOES what the watchmen, exactly?  What do you do when the protectors become the evil they once protected against?

 

 

 

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I'm sorry that I can't recall the username of the poster who told this story on these forums, but the story itself has stayed with me for years. IIRC said poster related this remark from his army drill sergeant to his platoon on their first day of training: "You don't have to earn my respect. That's your God-given right as human beings. But God help you if you ever lose it!"

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1 hour ago, Matt the Bruins said:

He was the one that stopped and looked like he was going to help Martin Gugino for a second. One of the jackbooted enforcers he was in the midst of stepped in and nipped that in the bud PDQ.

He did not stop.No excuses, no hand waving. You are what you Do.

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1 hour ago, pinecone said:

He did not stop.No excuses, no hand waving. You are what you Do.

 

No, I can't buy that.  It's too rigid to simply say there's no possible justification, which is what you're saying.  

 

On a different, local venue, someone posted some time ago about a local Wal-Mart not enforcing mask-wearing, when it was required.  I said much the same...that I'd go elsewhere. BUT...store personnel are not security personnel.  The store is NOT going to like an escalation, either.  Mind...this is Wal-Mart, so it's a very large store.  They can afford to go for security.  They didn't.  They had a mask requirement for their employees...and had several violators, which weren't hiding.  That tells me the store management didn't care enough.  THAT, I can strongly fault them for, because it is something they SHOULD control, among their own employees.

 

But in other things...life's never simple.  To borrow...the truth is rarely pure and never simple.  I will agree that his action is sufficient proof of misconduct, so he'd need to actively justify his non-action;  I won't agree that no such justification is possible.

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35 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

No, I can't buy that.  It's too rigid to simply say there's no possible justification, which is what you're saying.  

 

On a different, local venue, someone posted some time ago about a local Wal-Mart not enforcing mask-wearing, when it was required.  I said much the same...that I'd go elsewhere. BUT...store personnel are not security personnel.  The store is NOT going to like an escalation, either.  Mind...this is Wal-Mart, so it's a very large store.  They can afford to go for security.  They didn't.  They had a mask requirement for their employees...and had several violators, which weren't hiding.  That tells me the store management didn't care enough.  THAT, I can strongly fault them for, because it is something they SHOULD control, among their own employees.

 

But in other things...life's never simple.  To borrow...the truth is rarely pure and never simple.  I will agree that his action is sufficient proof of misconduct, so he'd need to actively justify his non-action;  I won't agree that no such justification is possible.

Are you comparing a store policy to heavily armed people who Kill people? The level of responsibility is quite different.Once lethal force enters into the equation, excuses and whining leave the venue. I won't hear that he was "good" when he did not act. By taking part passively or otherwise, he became part of the act.

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On 6/11/2020 at 11:17 PM, Pariah said:

I'll be honest, until a few weeks ago I didn't know a no-knock warrant was even a thing. I'm shocked an perplexed that such a procedure even exists.

 

To me, the phrase "No-knock warrant" fairly screams of "unreasonable search and seizure".

 

Really? I've been reading about outrageous abuses of "no knock" warrants (and the deaths of innocents as a result) for a very long time. Ditto the "asset forfeiture" scam that permits the authorities at the local, state, and federal levels to commit blatant robbery, which has also been going on for decades.

 

Just goes to show: you learn something new every day. You--that "no knock" warrants even exist. Me--that despite how well known they seem to me, plenty of people still haven't heard of them.

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A black man resists being taken into police custody and is fatally shot in the back while fleeing the police. I don't know what he did to attract the attention of the police, but given their track record of treatment of black men in their custody, I don't exactly blame him for running.

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1 hour ago, sinanju said:

 

Really? I've been reading about outrageous abuses of "no knock" warrants (and the deaths of innocents as a result) for a very long time. Ditto the "asset forfeiture" scam that permits the authorities at the local, state, and federal levels to commit blatant robbery, which has also been going on for decades.

 

Just goes to show: you learn something new every day. You--that "no knock" warrants even exist. Me--that despite how well known they seem to me, plenty of people still haven't heard of them.

jeff sessions helped intro asset forfeiture. he fit right in with the trump doj until he didnt

CES

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I don't know if this is the right thread but the appeals court has denied the DOJ's dismissal of charges against Mike Flynn. Apparently they got a bureaucrat who never saw the inside of a court to sign the paperwork, and the judge involved is like no, so they tried to go over his head, and the appeals panel was like no.

 

Bill Barr is the dirtiest cop around

CES   

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