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[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.


Ragitsu
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Well, let's hope you don't ever pull jury duty, since you're so willing to convict someone on half-baked, edited evidence from a known loon. I'll judge the guy after I hear the whole clip.

Half baked? The arrogant prick said it all on f*cking camera. He's chomping at the bit to murder some Constitutionalists in that thing. If you can't see that, there's no point in further discussion with you.

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If someone's close enough to you that their spittle is an issue, and angry enough to produce said spittle, I'd suggest that they should probably have their behavior corrected. That would seem to be in the attempting to provoke a fight category.

 

When I was in CA, there was a code against trying to provoke a law enforcement officer. We were told not to actually arrest anyone over it, though. Probably too much hassle/expense over such a gray area type of charge.

 

Some folks are more easily provoked than others, though. Plus, this comes across as some sort of way to protect fragile egos (or those originating from a subculture focused around honor).

 

http://youtu.be/YIzVD4u2Nn0?t=5m8s

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Half baked? The arrogant prick said it all on f*cking camera. He's chomping at the bit to murder some Constitutionalists in that thing. If you can't see that, there's no point in further discussion with you.

 

And I gave two recent examples of very good reasons that the guy may have brought up the examples he did. If you take that into account, and also the fact that it was likely only one example (the others being edited out), then it's not all that damning of "evidence." The fact is, that it's a valid example from his POV of a case when you'd want to use a heavy vehicle for cover. Same goes for any active shooter situation. It's not just useful for positioning police, but for protecting civilians.

 

I've heard other agencies in WA discuss these issues. The guy got cherry picked on a poor choice of words, certainly. But just that little bit doesn't deserve the bile you're spewing.

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Some folks are more easily provoked than others, though. Plus, this comes across as some sort of way to protect fragile egos (or those originating from a subculture focused around honor).

 

http://youtu.be/YIzVD4u2Nn0?t=5m8s

 

I've lost track of what your point was, sorry. My only point was that if someone's doing a primate display so vigorously as to get spittle on someone else, then that first person is having anger control issues. That has nothing to do with egos.

 

The monkey dance, explained: http://ymaa.com/articles/violence-dynamics

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I've lost track of what your point was, sorry. My only point was that if someone's doing a primate display so vigorously as to get spittle on someone else, then that first person is having anger control issues. That has nothing to do with egos.

 

The monkey dance, explained: http://ymaa.com/articles/violence-dynamics

 

I thought you were piggy-backing off of the definition of "fighting words", as that was the post I initially responded to.

 

Never mind, then.

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I thought you were piggy-backing off of the definition of "fighting words", as that was the post I initially responded to.

 

Never mind, then.

 

Kind of, yeah. "Fighting words" is a pretty gray category. Definitely not something you want to arrest someone based on, due to bumping up against the first amendment.

 

I'm kind of out of it today, sorry. Some kind of stomach flu I think.

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Well this took an ugly turn

 

Two police assassinated in their patrol car.

 

The shooter had recently shot his girlfriend and said that he wanted to be sure he was remembered for doing something right, then said they killed one of ours, lets kill two of theirs.

 

He was black. In a little twist, neither of the men he shot (5 days before Christmas) was white.  Oh, and one was a newlywed.

 

When the mayor gave a press conference on the subject, the police turned their backs to him.

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I saw that news story earlier today. It is tragic. I wish the best for the families of the deceased officers.

 

----

 

From the article

 

"Some union leaders suggested the mayor had sent a message that police officers were to be feared"

 

Could it be because the police are to be feared? Not many other groups of people have free license to murder people.

 

"“There is blood on many hands tonight,” the head of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, Patrick Lynch, said outside Woodhull Hospital. He added, “That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall, in the office of the mayor.”"

 

This guy sounds like a big jerk. If anyone is to blame for the bad imagine the police have it is he and his ilk for harassing and killing the citizenry.

 

Is there a single police department in the US that has enough brains to recognize that the problem isn't protesters, it is that POLICE keep giving people reasons to protest.

 

La Rose.

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Another story of po-po being poor-po-po just popped up in my feed. Anyone want to watch as an ignorant piece of excriment cop brutalizes a 76 old man because he (the cop) doesn't even F*ing know the rules he is suppose to be enforcing? If so, feel free to click away. Huff post article with video.

 

My favorite quote was ""I told the officer, 'What in the hell are you doing?' This gentleman is 76 years old," sales manager Larry Urich told the newspaper. "The cop told me to stand back, but I didn't shut up. I told him he was a goddamn Nazi Stormtrooper."

 

La Rose.

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I saw that news story earlier today. It is tragic. I wish the best for the families of the deceased officers.

 

----

 

From the article

 

"Some union leaders suggested the mayor had sent a message that police officers were to be feared"

 

Could it be because the police are to be fear? Not many other groups of people have free license to murder people.

 

"“There is blood on many hands tonight,” the head of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, Patrick Lynch, said outside Woodhull Hospital. He added, “That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall, in the office of the mayor.”"

 

This guy sounds like a big jerk. If anyone is to blame for the bad imagine the police have it is he and his ilk for harassing and killing the citizenry.

 

Is there a single police department in the US that has enough brains to recognize that the problem isn't protesters, it is that POLICE keep giving people reasons to protest.

 

La Rose.

 

Wow! Way to take an opportunity to recapture public good will and beat it to death with a nightstick.  Impressive really.

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I am wondering if there is anyone but me, that is divided on the 2 incidents.

 

1)  Michael Brown.  As near as I can tell for me, while I cant say without a reasonable doubt Wilson is innocent.  I can most certainly am much. much closer to that, than the opposite.  Dorian Johnson=liar, for me.  While, the prosecutor's handling was shameful, that is a seperate issue, and probably needs to be dealt with.  An unfortunate implication for me, that keeps popping up in my head; Darren Wilson SHOULD have let Michael Brown kill him.  Like it or not, that is the implication the protesters lead me to (right or wrong) and that rankles me.  (And I am not a fan, of "well they should have indicted him anyway", if you have little chance of convicting a guy, proceeding anyway, just because you are afraid of some external politicalreaction, putting a likely not guilty person's life on hold, for your own benefit,  strikes me as worse than evil)

 

2) Eric Garner. I come to a different conclusion.  I have to ignore the idiocy of the "Democratic Republic" of NYC's policy on cigarettes, which without it this situation wouldnt have occurred. So, ignoring that,  Looking at the video, it looks like Garner is gesturing with his hands while talking and some idiot cop panics and goes choke-crazy, because well this guy is rather large.  At that point of course, Eric Garner probably struggled, due to the fact that most people when unable to breathe, will struggle to do whatever they can to try to breathe, aka live.

 

If anything with me, these incidents prove that the local prosecutors arent the ones who should be in charge of these things.  Humans are susceptible to conflict of interest.  So, outsiders are needed to see these incidents clearly.

 

And it has irked me where the public for so long made such an issue of Michael Brown, but completely ignored a similar case with greater chance of legitimacy (to me).   They should have focused on both, to be sure.  But, both sides of the media decided to put all the eggs in one basket.

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 Oh and with the witnesses in Ferguson, you have several on both sides with conflicting stories with each other, remember. (not including Dorian Johnson's already mentioned account). So it really is "reasonable doubt" or abitrarily decide to believe the one's supporting Brown. (the arbitrarily  believe the one's supporting Wilson will choose the same result as the reasonable doubters)

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I saw that news story earlier today. It is tragic. I wish the best for the families of the deceased officers.

 

----

 

From the article

 

"Some union leaders suggested the mayor had sent a message that police officers were to be feared"

 

Could it be because the police are to be feared? Not many other groups of people have free license to murder people.

 

"“There is blood on many hands tonight,” the head of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, Patrick Lynch, said outside Woodhull Hospital. He added, “That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall, in the office of the mayor.”"

 

This guy sounds like a big jerk. If anyone is to blame for the bad imagine the police have it is he and his ilk for harassing and killing the citizenry.

 

Is there a single police department in the US that has enough brains to recognize that the problem isn't protesters, it is that POLICE keep giving people reasons to protest.

 

La Rose.

 

 

Well, while i wont discount the fact of dirty cops most certainly (especially considering several local cops of 5 years ago has spent jailtime in the intervening years-mainly due to keeping what they confiscated for their own purposes) I will say from my experience with cops and other's experiences.  That doing what the cops is telling you to do and being polite does tend to decrease the likelihood of violence.  While cussing out cops, charging cops, brandishing weapons around cops tends to increase such likelihood.  I wont recommend against a citizen from defying the cops, but you are doing so at your own risk, so make sure your cause is worth it.  (to be sure some cops could handle situations better, but, remember if you are itching to fight a cop, he'll win most times-even if he needs to call for reinforcements)

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 Oh and with the witnesses in Ferguson, you have several on both sides with conflicting stories with each other, remember. (not including Dorian Johnson's already mentioned account). So it really is "reasonable doubt" or abitrarily decide to believe the one's supporting Brown. (the arbitrarily  believe the one's supporting Wilson will choose the same result as the reasonable doubters)

 

I have no doubt that people had conflicting accounts of the murdering in Missouri, but the fact that there are conflicting accounts isn't a good reason to NOT go to trial. The prosecutor didn't want to go to trial and risk actually prosecuting a cop. He would either win and piss off all his dirty cop friends or lose and risk disbarment because he threw the trial. And rather than step up and acknowledge that he had no desire to prosecute he pulls in a Grand Jury where he does absolutely every thing he can to throw it so that they dismiss it. 

 

Absolutely NO witnesses for the cop should have been brought up . Absoltuely NO counter arguments for the cop should have been brought up. The grand jury is NOT a trial and does not operate the same way as one. It is solely a quick check on the prosecutor's authority to insure he isn't being frivolous with his judgement. And unless you are comfortable in saying that there was absolutely NO way for the state to make a case, then it should have gone to trial. A grand jury coming back with a no is not them saying "there is reasonable doubt" or that there isn't a "preponderance of the evidence" but that there is NO justifiable reason to go to trial. It is like when a judge throws out a frivolous civil court case based on his initial reading. It is a declaration that no reasonable person could assume culpability by the defendant. 

 

 

Well, while i wont discount the fact of dirty cops most certainly (especially considering several local cops of 5 years ago has spent jailtime in the intervening years-mainly due to keeping what they confiscated for their own purposes) I will say from my experience with cops and other's experiences.  That doing what the cops is telling you to do and being polite does tend to decrease the likelihood of violence.  While cussing out cops, charging cops, brandishing weapons around cops tends to increase such likelihood.  I wont recommend against a citizen from defying the cops, but you are doing so at your own risk, so make sure your cause is worth it.  (to be sure some cops could handle situations better, but, remember if you are itching to fight a cop, he'll win most times-even if he needs to call for reinforcements)

 

But it shouldn't be that way. Cops ought to know the laws and people ought not be afraid to live inside those rules. But too often cops overstep their reasonable authority without repercussion. Too often we have cops stealing from citizenry, molesting / raping the citizenry, and killing us without any good reason but still getting away with it. People should never have to fear the cops but god-damnit, cops have done a bang up job at making sure we all have to fear them. The fact that you talk about people needing to be scared how they interact with cops lest they get hurt as if that is somehow a normal and okay way of thinking is not acceptable. 

 

La Rose. 

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If a man in a big white unmarked van almost runs you off the road what do you do? Honk your horn at him? I think that seems normal. Well, I have news for you, NEVER do that in Arizona. The person in that van may then choose to follow you, try to knocked you off the road and then pull a gun on you. And why am I bringing that up in THIS thread? Because of course that man will be a police officer. Road Rage Maniacs with Guns just seem to fit right in with the modern US police department. Well, I guess everyone deserves a job, right? 

 

Here is a link to a fox10phoenix report about it. 

 

La Rose. 

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Seeing the reactions of the officers in New York City towards the mayor (turning your back on the elected head of the city, basically saying "F*** you!") and the other articles of police behaving like jerks at best, armed and dangerous bully in the mean-time bordering on what I would expect from a foreign army occupying an enemy's country, I do think that a "US (cops) versus THEM (everyone else)"-mentality does not seem wide-spread amongst U.S. cops, but mandatory to get the job in the first place!

 

Some serious TRAINING and RE-TRAINING seems to be the order of the day. And the propagation of cops doing a 100% service to serve as examples of how to serve and protect.

 

Regarding the incidents in Missouri and New York City and the shot-down kid in the park: To me, absolutely different things.

 

Eric Garner was a working-class guy trying to make end-meet with selling cigarettes one at a time! It was against the law but he didn't harm anyone and the tax damage was most likely neglectable (he was probally not moving thousands of smokes that way a day).

So, he was poor. And he wasn't observing a law that is aimed agianst poor people (who else sells and buys cigarettes one by one?)

For that, he got killed. This sound not like a story from 2014 to me, but from 1914, 1924 or 1934. So what is this: Class War in the Second American Great Depression?

 

Michael Brown was a bully and a thief who didn't follow the law. And since he was a bully and not very smart but big he thought that when a cop tells you to get off the street you can just get his gun and give it to the cop. Well, he was wrong.

He was killed because he made a foolish decision (attacking an armed cop). He did quite a lot to find trouble. He found it. Now he is dead.

No sympathy here. Was mugged at gun-point once myself and have since then ZERO tolerance for such trash. Good riddance!

I don't understand the US grand jury system but if that is the system then you have to us it. Investigating thewhole thing in court would have been better than "Don''t shot!"-know-it-alls and Al "Where is the race-bandwagon?" Sharpton in the street who come along as having been quite pleased if thecop had bought the farm.

BTW: Has Al a day job or is he just waiting for another white-on-black killing taking place so that he can hit the streets chanting? and how does he make a living out of that?

 

The kid in the park (lost his name) was killed because he played unwisely with a toy-gun that American industry deems to be more sales-worthy if it looks almost like a real one. For playing in the way he played with it he should have received a stern word from his parents of the police and maybe they should have confiscated the toy and told him that his parents could get at from the station. Depending on the reaction of the pareants (if they had been like "How dare you take that toy-gun away from my son!") they could have told the parents about the danger of playing with real-life-looking toy-guns.

But instead of all that he was gunned down in what I assume to be the first cop-drive-by that I have eaver seen on video outside of a movie!

The kid was murdered by killer-cops.

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I have no doubt that people had conflicting accounts of the murdering in Missouri, but the fact that there are conflicting accounts isn't a good reason to NOT go to trial. The prosecutor didn't want to go to trial and risk actually prosecuting a cop. He would either win and piss off all his dirty cop friends or lose and risk disbarment because he threw the trial. And rather than step up and acknowledge that he had no desire to prosecute he pulls in a Grand Jury where he does absolutely every thing he can to throw it so that they dismiss it. 

 

Absolutely NO witnesses for the cop should have been brought up . Absoltuely NO counter arguments for the cop should have been brought up. The grand jury is NOT a trial and does not operate the same way as one. It is solely a quick check on the prosecutor's authority to insure he isn't being frivolous with his judgement. And unless you are comfortable in saying that there was absolutely NO way for the state to make a case, then it should have gone to trial. A grand jury coming back with a no is not them saying "there is reasonable doubt" or that there isn't a "preponderance of the evidence" but that there is NO justifiable reason to go to trial. It is like when a judge throws out a frivolous civil court case based on his initial reading. It is a declaration that no reasonable person could assume culpability by the defendant. 

 

 

 

But it shouldn't be that way. Cops ought to know the laws and people ought not be afraid to live inside those rules. But too often cops overstep their reasonable authority without repercussion. Too often we have cops stealing from citizenry, molesting / raping the citizenry, and killing us without any good reason but still getting away with it. People should never have to fear the cops but god-damnit, cops have done a bang up job at making sure we all have to fear them. The fact that you talk about people needing to be scared how they interact with cops lest they get hurt as if that is somehow a normal and okay way of thinking is not acceptable. 

 

La Rose. 

 

I said "fear" the cops?   No, I suggested using a minimal level of common sense.  If your boss chews you out for making a mistakes, do you react by cussing out your boss, or punching your boss?  I hope not.  People who do spend a lot of time unemployed. 

 

How many dirty cops do you suppose there are though?  By the way you are talking it seems like you are assuming minimum 50%.  As far as my case of local cops, if I assume half the dirty cops didnt get caught, we are still talking less than 10% (though small sample size given the community, so the few bad apples may have skewed us upwards).

 

But, back to common sense vs. fear.  If "fear" is the sole thing that will keep you from assaulting a cop that pulls your car over, then maybe "fear" is a good thing.  It'd be nice if a cop didnt have to worry that every person he pulls over for speeding might be the one who kills him, but that is possible.   (which also happened to a local police officer a few years ago)  I dont really understand why people equate "precautions=intolerable fear".

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"I said "fear" the cops?   No, I suggested using a minimal level of common sense.  If your boss chews you out for making a mistakes, do you react by cussing out your boss, or punching your boss?  I hope not.  People who do spend a lot of time unemployed."

 

-- I said fear. You said we should act in a way consistent with fearing cops. Which we should because we need to fear the cops these days.

 

And there is a vast difference between a boss chewing you out when you make a mistake and a Cop brutalizing you when you have done nothing wrong. People should never have to worry about getting beat up, arrested, or killed by the cops when they have done nothing wrong. But in the world we live in we are expecting people to bend over and take it just because some jerk in a uniform wants to get their rocks off. And if we as the citizenry can't demand our rights be respect on the spot then there is a strong argument to made that we have NO rights. 

 

"How many dirty cops do you suppose there are though?"

 

You are right to assume that my opinion of the average cop is that low. I really don't think any cop is worth the time of the day these days. I will not go out on the extreme limb and say that the majority are murders but I will say that the majority have no moral qualms about covering for their murderous friends. Given how many daily stories we get about these jerks it isn't hard to have this view. We had the story I posted just a bit ago about a maniac cop. And there is no doubt that if the person he threatened with a gun wasn't a respected politician he would have gotten away with it. The person that filmed the Eric Garner murder found himself harassed and arrested by cops soon after - that isn't just a couple bad eggs, that is a culture of corruptions and complacency. We had the California highway patrolman who would steel nude and otherwise compromising photos of young women he pulled over and sent it around to all his cop friends because, to paraphrase him, "everyone is in on it". And he still didn't think anything was wrong with it after he was caught doing so.

 

But, back to common sense vs. fear.  If "fear" is the sole thing that will keep you from assaulting a cop that pulls your car over, then maybe "fear" is a good thing.  It'd be nice if a cop didnt have to worry that every person he pulls over for speeding might be the one who kills him, but that is possible.   (which also happened to a local police officer a few years ago)  I dont really understand why people equate "precautions=intolerable fear".

 

Cops, despite their B''''ing and whining are safer now than they have ever been. It is like how people these days complain about how violent the world is and how much safer it was back in the day - guess what, that is a lie. People are safer today than they have ever been. Cops are safer now than they have ever been - probably because enough people realize that cops are just one bad look away from executing you. 

 

Do cops have an easy job? No, they don't. That is why I always tried to give them the pass. But you know what, I don't care. They get stable job and are paid to deal with that stuff. They're big boys now playing with big boy toys. They need to be held to a high standard - and that includes accepting a certain amount of risk to make sure they aren't murdering a defenseless 12 year old. They need to accept some risks so they don't choke a clearly harmless man to death. They need to accept some risk and not shoot a boy who already surrendered like some Judge-Dread wanna be executioner. They need to accept some F'ing risks because at the end of the day, that is what they are F'ing paid to do. If they can't then they need to turn in their badge and get the F' out of the police force. 

 

La Rose.

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Spokane Sheriff's Department deputy says MRAPs are for going after Constitutionalists, Preppers, and people "stockpiling" guns:

 

 

Whatever your opinion may be of Alex Jones and Infowars, the fact remains that they caught this moron on camera saying all this, and it is a reflection on the kind of "training" these goosestepping pinheads are getting.

Lucky me,my county.

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Cops, despite their B''''ing and whining are safer now than they have ever been. It is like how people these days complain about how violent the world is and how much safer it was back in the day - guess what, that is a lie. People are safer today than they have ever been. Cops are safer now than they have ever been - probably because enough people realize that cops are just one bad look away from executing you.

 

Don't kid yourself. The us vs. them thing goes both ways. It's a vicious cycle that isn't going to be broken any time soon,  IMO.

 

This isn't to excuse the officers in any of the three cases mentioned here. I think they all could have been avoided. The Ferguson officer should have called for backup, the NYC officers should not have gone for the neck area in their dubious technically-legal choke, and the police who shot the kid with the Airsoft gun should have approached with more caution (and backup if they thought he was armed). 

 

But to claim that the police are somehow "safe" from harm is disingenuous. Police officers have deal with violent people day in and day out. You seem to have no idea how warped some people truly are (which isn't a bad thing), or how many of them we cycle in and out of our prison system continually.

 

I had a recent discussion with a young officer who came out in response to a noise complaint I made a couple of years ago. This is in a town of about 100,000, just north of Tacoma. So, very much more a suburban than urban setting. While I was standing next to him telling him what was going on, he kept edging away from me. The first time, I thought he was sliding over to get a better view at the area his partner was in. The second time, I got the clue something wasn't OK, so I asked him about it. He said that he was trying to keep a safe distance. Keep in mind, he's talking to a middle-aged white guy, who was the one who called in the complaint. I asked him if he had a lot of problems with that, and he said that he got jumped by people he was interviewing all the time. Granted, we had our share of spillover knuckleheads from Tacoma, but that was a bit surprising to hear.

 

Now, this kid was honestly fearful, and hadn't been on the job long. Someone had already failed him in his training, because he wasn't projecting any kind of authority, just fear. He should have politely and firmly asked me to stand back if he wasn't comfortable with the distance. Nobody had apparently given the kid any training in interpersonal communication skills. As an MP, do you know what my first level of force was on our use of force continuum? IPC: Interpersonal Communication. Now, given that law enforcement duties were only about a quarter to a third of what we actually were trained on and did, why is it that so many civilian police are so lacking in this area?

 

Take that kid a few years down the line: He hears about the Lakewood shooting of four officers, he gets into more scrapes with the local knuckleheads, etc. His training isn't from carefully developed protocols, but by the school of hard knocks and by jaded veteran cops who have also been to that same school. He'll either leave the job or harden up. He may be jumpy like the Chicago cops who came on too strong and killed the twelve year old.

 

The us vs. them mentality is founded in an unfortunate reality, and that is the reality that there are a whole crapton of "Them" out there. Even if only ten percent or five percent of the people you contact in a day are criminals, and only five or ten percent of those are in the "Them" category -- the don't-give-a-F***, YOLO, violent with no regard for common sense but a whole lot of hate for "the Man" category -- then your average officer is still going to run into those types on a very regular basis.

 

The root problem here is the damage done to this country by slavery, by the dehumanization of a people as an attempt to keep them in chains, and by all that followed. There's no easy solution to the us vs them mentality that exists on both sides, because it's a hugely complex problem that's rooted in the origin of our country.

 

What we do need is to give our police better training, and better guidance. We also need to give them solid mental health support: It's a very rare person who can deal with the crap police have to deal with day in and day out and not be changed by it.  We also need to filter out the worse elements as well. There are plenty of people who take the job because of the authority. Habitual abusers of authority should be fired, not reprimanded. Police unions can't be allowed to dictate disciplinary policies. Unions can play an important role in making sure that such policies aren't abusive, but shouldn't be allowed to put up a wall against any discipline of a member by an employer, which happens all too often with police and teacher "unions" in this country.

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Lucky me,my county.

 

Call 'em up and ask them what they actually said. You might have a bone head up your way, or you might have Alex Jones putting a whole lot of words into the guy's mouth. He did say what he said, but when good old Alex tells you what the guy said, it gets embellished. (Actually, you probably do have a bone head and Alex Jones is still blowing it out of proportion.)

 

For example, when the bone head uses the term "Constitutionalists" he's probably talking about these guys. Those guys sometimes go too far. Like, for example, plotting to kill all of the members of a local police department. After that happened, the bone head guy in the video probably got a briefing on the incident that used the term "Constitutionalist milita" and the word stuck with him. Now, this guy probably thinks that should some of those Constitutionalist guys get riled up, that a MRAP may come in handy.

 

Do note that he was asked for a list, and only the beginning of the list was put up by Jones. He was cut off.

 

So, you probably do have a bone head or three up your way. It's bound to happen. Police are under-budgeted (and the milsurp toys are usually outside of budget for the big stuff, b/c Uncle Sam is giving them away) and under-trained. Lots of bone heads get in that way. On the other hand, you also probably don't have a local sheriff's department actively hunting pro-2nd Amendment types either.

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