Jump to content

[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.


Ragitsu

Recommended Posts

Well, while i wont discount the fact of dirty cops most certainly (especially considering several local cops of 5 years ago has spent jailtime in the intervening years-mainly due to keeping what they confiscated for their own purposes) I will say from my experience with cops and other's experiences.  That doing what the cops is telling you to do and being polite does tend to decrease the likelihood of violence.  While cussing out cops, charging cops, brandishing weapons around cops tends to increase such likelihood.  I wont recommend against a citizen from defying the cops, but you are doing so at your own risk, so make sure your cause is worth it.  (to be sure some cops could handle situations better, but, remember if you are itching to fight a cop, he'll win most times-even if he needs to call for reinforcements)

Even if someone "wins" against a cop, well it is hard to outrun Marconi.

 

I live in Spokane County. A friend has a brother who AFAIK WAS a deputy. Apparently Federal civil rights charges are underway. Other officers from other departments described him as an "animal", but officers wanted him at their backs if things got hairy. IMO he should not very have been an officer, based on the stories I have heard.

 

One night my wife and I were driving into town, she was driving. We were driving a little pos, and were pulled over by a young county officer for a bad muffler. We live on a dirt road that eats mufflers every winter, we have seen the entire exhaust system from a full sixed truck torn off and lying alongside the road.

I have a concealed carry permit, and was carrying. When the officer asked if there were any weapons in the car, I said yes, and told him I had my pistol and iirc 2 pocket knives, different blades for different uses. I showed him my ccw, and he acted like he wanted to shit himself. He iirc made me keep my hands on the dash while HE removed my pistol from my holster, unloaded it, and took it to his car, with the pocket knives. I can't even remember whether he wrote a ticket anymore, but he put my belongings on top of my car and ordered me to not touch them until he had left the scene.

 

 

When we were discussing recent events, she mentioned that officer as an exwmple of one who probably should not be one, if he is so afraid of citizens with NO criminal record...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, are they allowed to disarm you like that?  That's one area of CC I'm fuzzy on.

 

Techically? Legally??? I doubt it is policy. OTOH, even as a middle aged white male, I do NOT do anything I think might cause an overreaction. Like I said, this kid seemed on the edge of shitting himself, and that is NOT a mindset a sane person deliberately antagonizes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a gem of a story. In Buffalo, NY, a cop does the absolutely horrible, evil, and puppy-hating act of trying to get her fellow cop to stop choking an already detained suspect. As a result of her absolutely wretched actions she got punched in the face, fired, and is about to lose access to her pension. I guess she should feel lucky, anyone else in her position would have just been murdered for daring to question police authority. 

 

Vice News story

 

La Rose. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Don't kid yourself. The us vs. them thing goes both ways. It's a vicious cycle that isn't going to be broken any time soon,  IMO."
 
No doubt. And I will gladly start calling out murders like the above cop-killer when they happen. And you will see just as angry a post from me when we start letting such filth off after committing such heinous acts. But guess what, that isn't going to be happening. Cops get to deal out justice but never seemed to get it dealt to them. It is an us v them issue because cops refuse to live by the same rules. They make it an US vs THEM.
 
"But to claim that the police are somehow "safe" from harm is disingenuous. Police officers have deal with violent people day in and day out. You seem to have no idea how warped some people truly are (which isn't a bad thing), or how many of them we cycle in and out of our prison system continually."
 
I never claimed it to be a safe job. But it is SAFER to be a cop today than it has ever been in our history. And speaking of which, do you know who has a more dangerous job than cops: 
 
Loggers, Fishers, Pilots, Roofers, Construction workers, steel workers, Trashmen, electricians, truckers, and farmers. Oh, and lets top off the list with the best one: Absolutely any black kid in a big city. So excuse me if I am not buying into the 'poor defenseless cop' BS. They are given a badge and invested with all the powers that come with that - they also accept certain basic risks just like a Pilot has to. 

 

La Rose. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't put words in your mouth. And don't talk to me about "lowering" myself especially when you claim I did something I didn't. 

 

La Rose. 

 

I'm not seeing any other explanation for the bit I quoted. Even if that wasn't your intent, it still illustrates that you missed a very simple point, and one which wasn't defending any of the police in these incidents in any way. You go on and be all angry on the internet. As I said, we're done here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not seeing any other explanation for the bit I quoted. Even if that wasn't your intent, it still illustrates that you missed a very simple point, and one which wasn't defending any of the police in these incidents in any way. You go on and be all angry on the internet. As I said, we're done here.

 

The bit you quoted of mine was not me "putting words in your mouth" anymore than you saying "But to claim that the police are somehow "safe" from harm is disingenuous" is putting words in my mouth. So, if you really want to go down this road of accusing me of doing things I didn't, feel free to not also do the action you accuse me of doing...

 

I didn't claim you said anything other than I actually quoted.  

 

La Rose.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I said "fear" the cops?   No, I suggested using a minimal level of common sense.  If your boss chews you out for making a mistakes, do you react by cussing out your boss, or punching your boss?  I hope not.  People who do spend a lot of time unemployed."

 

-- I said fear. You said we should act in a way consistent with fearing cops. Which we should because we need to fear the cops these days.

 

And there is a vast difference between a boss chewing you out when you make a mistake and a Cop brutalizing you when you have done nothing wrong. People should never have to worry about getting beat up, arrested, or killed by the cops when they have done nothing wrong. But in the world we live in we are expecting people to bend over and take it just because some jerk in a uniform wants to get their rocks off. And if we as the citizenry can't demand our rights be respect on the spot then there is a strong argument to made that we have NO rights. 

 

"How many dirty cops do you suppose there are though?"

 

You are right to assume that my opinion of the average cop is that low. I really don't think any cop is worth the time of the day these days. I will not go out on the extreme limb and say that the majority are murders but I will say that the majority have no moral qualms about covering for their murderous friends. Given how many daily stories we get about these jerks it isn't hard to have this view. We had the story I posted just a bit ago about a maniac cop. And there is no doubt that if the person he threatened with a gun wasn't a respected politician he would have gotten away with it. The person that filmed the Eric Garner murder found himself harassed and arrested by cops soon after - that isn't just a couple bad eggs, that is a culture of corruptions and complacency. We had the California highway patrolman who would steel nude and otherwise compromising photos of young women he pulled over and sent it around to all his cop friends because, to paraphrase him, "everyone is in on it". And he still didn't think anything was wrong with it after he was caught doing so.

 

 

Cops, despite their B''''ing and whining are safer now than they have ever been. It is like how people these days complain about how violent the world is and how much safer it was back in the day - guess what, that is a lie. People are safer today than they have ever been. Cops are safer now than they have ever been - probably because enough people realize that cops are just one bad look away from executing you. 

 

Do cops have an easy job? No, they don't. That is why I always tried to give them the pass. But you know what, I don't care. They get stable job and are paid to deal with that stuff. They're big boys now playing with big boy toys. They need to be held to a high standard - and that includes accepting a certain amount of risk to make sure they aren't murdering a defenseless 12 year old. They need to accept some risks so they don't choke a clearly harmless man to death. They need to accept some risk and not shoot a boy who already surrendered like some Judge-Dread wanna be executioner. They need to accept some F'ing risks because at the end of the day, that is what they are F'ing paid to do. If they can't then they need to turn in their badge and get the F' out of the police force. 

 

La Rose.

 

 

Hmm, you really missed the point of my boss analogy.  If a police, pulls you over for going 70 in a 45, and ask you why, just maybe it might be an overreaction to assault him.  While I would prefer to appeal to common sense and/or morality to prevent one from doing so to the cop.   As a last resort, if fear is the only thing that prevents you from  doing so, then I am glad you fear that cop, for your  sake.  If a cop starts brutalizing a citizen then by all means do what one can to live (which is why my opinion was much more favorable towards Eric Garner).   But, if one's reaction to questions or tickets is violence, well they are an idiot. 

 

If your reaction to being told to get off of the middle of the road (an act which proves in and of itself proves you're dumber than the shoes you're wearing) is to go for the cop's gun and try to shoot him, then you are an idiot.  (and I want say Brown deserved to die, but Wilson didnt deserve to be executed, and had just much right to live)

 

Note: ANd I probably wasnt clear about the whole grand jury thing last night. It shouldnt have gone to a grand jury.  At all.   I see no reason to offer Darren Wilson as a sacrifice to the masses.  When the case, is so likely to be a self-defense case.  That prosecutor needs disbarring, granted.  If he or his bosses had the requisite intestinal fortitude, it doesnt go that far.

 

You can keep on posting your news stories, it is commendable to have a crusade.  Though, all you are really proving to the other side is there is one more proven dirty cop in the nation that there was since the last case you posted.   Just as long as you know that, go for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On another thought.  You know what I am going to let you say "I am suggesting citizens the cops".  I highly recommend it, even. Fear is a very good thing in certain cases.  Other things I suggest putting fear to include:  Sitcking a hungry bear in the @$$ with a stick, using the same stick to play pinata with the hornets' nest.  And bobbing for fire ants probably should be feared too.  

 

I considered: Dont initiate conflict with a policeman. to be common sense.  But, if it takes fear, then I will embrace the term with pride.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Badger, I think you missed my counter. Our interactions with the police aren't like our interactions with our boss after we make a mistake. Completely innocent and law abiding citizens are being messed with, too. Just like that girl from Texas upthread. Luckily she was FWW: Filming While White, otherwise her choke old may have been a bullet hole.

When even innocent and law abiding people are denied their basic rights because cops are too incompetent or foul to respect them, then we have no right. And post facto justice is rare and not enough.

La Rose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't sound good: "Utah police now responsible for more homicides than gangs or drug dealers" .... (http://rt.com/usa/208403-utah-police-gangs-homicide/). I understand that this is a complicated issue, but it certainly seems like something is out of whack when the US police are killing civilians at a rate nearly 20-50 times higher than police in other developed countries. For example, in Denmark the police have shot and killed about 1 person per year (on average) over the last decade. Adjusted for population, that's about 5% of the US rate: and it's actually the highest rate in our neighbourhood by a reasonable margin.

 

And honestly, to me, it seems very odd that "Fear of the police" is considered in any way reasonable. The police are there to help provide public safety. They are not there to be feared - and if they become feared, then to me, that's a sure sign that they need to be reigned in.

 

cheers, Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is you guys' take on the new shooting in Missouri?

 

From what I have heard so far in the German media the youngsters (18 years old) was indeed pointing a 9mm gun at the cop who then shot three times hitting once and killed the youth.

 

German media is speaking of demonstrations in the 300s and new "race riots" since the young man was black.

Can't say if the cop has had an itchy trigger-finger but it seems that the shooting was within the range of possible responses (adding, like I did before and Mark does, that it seems that shooting at people seems to be a handy method for US police to deal with a problem).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is you guys' take on the new shooting in Missouri?

My take is that this should have been expected. When you have cops gunning down unarmed civilians on the flimsiest of pretexts, with total impunity, then when a situation arises where lethal force is actually justified it's still going to set off the population.

 

As it is, my first reaction when I read the story was "Did the guy really have a gun? Really? Now I'm expecting the security camera footage that shows the cop planting a gun on the unarmed perp.

 

My second reaction was, of course the guy drew on the cop if he thought he was going to get shot anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For example, in Denmark the police have shot and killed about 1 person per year (on average) over the last decade. Adjusted for population, that's about 5% of the US rate: and it's actually the highest rate in our neighbourhood by a reasonable margin.

 

I have to wonder how valid this comparison is, though. There are a lot of factors in play here, so simple statistics don't really paint a good picture.

 

I do agree with the rest of your post. There's a huge problem in this country, and we need to make a greater effort to get it sorted out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is you guys' take on the new shooting in Missouri?

 

I'm going to say that I don't have enough information to form an opinion at this point. It was at a gas station, so there is likely security footage, and also the possibility of dash cam footage from the police car. I'd expect any footage supporting the officer's version of events to be published pretty soon in an effort to diffuse the situation.

 

 

 

From what I have heard so far in the German media the youngsters (18 years old) was indeed pointing a 9mm gun at the cop who then shot three times hitting once and killed the youth.

 

I'm going to insert an observation here: Police have been getting a lot of flak for buying surplus military hardware here. In fact, we had a story about a small town department in our state on the radio this morning. Apparently, a town of 11,000 felt justified in spending $412,000 on an MRAP. (I'd heard a previous story that some of the MRAPs were simply being donated, so commented that they were likely out of budget in another post. Guess that's not accurate. That's what I get for getting my news from ... the news.) Another item that's frequently commented on are rifles, presumably M16s/M4s.

 

Usually people ask why the police need these military rifles. (As if it were a new thing; police have been using ARs for years, this is just a cheaper source for some.) Well, this shooting is a good example. First, the officer hit the subject with only one of three shots. That's actually a pretty average result for a police shooting, and considering he probably drew and fired very quickly under stress, not really bad shooting. But it leaves two bullets out there. That's not so good.

 

A rifle is much more likely to produce a solid hit on the first shot. It's much, much easier to hit a target with a rifle than it is a pistol. It's also more likely for a rifle to produce an incapacitating shot, which means less shots fired. The 5.56 round is very light weight, and travels at very high velocity. Compared to a pistol round which travels considerably slower but has considerably more mass. The difference is that the pistol round has considerably more penetration through barriers, whereas a 5.56 is more likely to break apart on hitting a barrier. Overall, the rifle is the safer choice if it comes down to it.

 

I'm not saying that a rifle could have necessarily been deployed here, just inserting an unrelated observation about one of the two frequently discussed items LE is currently picking up surplus from our military. The rifles have a very valid civilian use IMO.

 

 

 

German media is speaking of demonstrations in the 300s and new "race riots" since the young man was black.

 

This was undoubtedly bad timing. Not that there's good timing, but I think even if there was incontrovertible evidence released along with the story that showed the shooting was 100% justified, we'd have still had a riot due to the race and age of the subject.

 

 

 

Can't say if the cop has had an itchy trigger-finger but it seems that the shooting was within the range of possible responses (adding, like I did before and Mark does, that it seems that shooting at people seems to be a handy method for US police to deal with a problem).

 

If a violent felon points a gun at you, shooting is a very handy method to deal with the problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately however, after recent events, unarmed, peaceful civilians may also think they're going to get shot. With good reason. Thus negating one of the primary advantages of not being a violent felon.

 

Security footage from this most recent shooting has been released. It sucks. The action happens at a great distance from the camera, the people look like ants, and I don't see the perp ant do much of anything before the cop ant freaks out and starts shooting while falling backwards, then backpedals across the pavement. Cop ant was definitely scared s_tless though, so there's that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey there, long time no see. I can say there is a great deal of consensus that police training isn't all that great and that there are many instances when police choose to escalate when it is not demonstrably needed. There seems to be a divide with how to "feel" about this and how to view the nature of the average police officer's "soul". On the subject of the Greater St. Louis Area, I had read a long article about a fairly unique problem in the area. Evidently, Missouri law is fast and loose about the incorporation of municipalities. Over the decades, tiny little municipalities have been created as another option to "white flight". These little municipalities can't support themselves so they have moved to predatory policing a la the speed trap town - only it's a bunch of them right by each other - a recipe for disaster.

 

As far as the Grand Jury in Ferguson. I am convinced the Prosecutor only called a Grand Jury for political reasons. He had the discretion to not prosecute without one but chose to call a Grand Jury to be more transparent. I'm going to throw something out there that some won't like. I am happy he let the Grand Jury hear so much of the evidence. I have never liked the notion that "A grand jury will indict a ham sandwich." I've always felt the Grand Jury system was rigged too much against the defendant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but a grand jury doesn't fine the defendant or send him to jail.  It just permits a trial to go forward, and real trials are not rigged too much against defendants. As such, I have no trouble letting the indictment process be a little aggressive.

It's a fundamentally unfair process, IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...