Selling Fantasy Hero

[Lord Liaden]

Credit should also be given to the game writers and designers who have already created licensed game settings for Fantasy HERO which they tried very hard to make "original" and "compelling," and which are available for purchase right now from the HG website store: Kamarathin; The Last Dominion; The Echoes of Heaven.

[Lucius]

Credit should also be given to the game writers and designers who have already created licensed game settings for Fantasy HERO which they tried very hard to make "original" and "compelling," and which are available for purchase right now from the HG website store: Kamarathin; The Last Dominion; The Echoes of Heaven.

Thanks for the reminder....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Telling the palindromedary to make a note of it

[zslane]

Credit should also be given to the game writers and designers who have already created licensed game settings for Fantasy HERO which they tried very hard to make "original" and "compelling," and which are available for purchase right now from the HG website store: Kamarathin; The Last Dominion; The Echoes of Heaven.

They certainly deserve credit and acknowledgment. But their products need quite a bit more than that.

 

They need updating to 6e standards (yes, I am aware that one of them has a conversion document, but that means even more work for people trying to get into the setting from scratch). They also need to not be buried in the HG store where they languish in almost complete obscurity. The question of how to get the word out about the Hero System came up elsewhere, and the answer applies equally to any 3rd party product line (setting) with ambitions of reaching a wider gaming audience (and if that is not its ambition, then it doesn't really qualify as part of this particular discussion, IMO).

[Markdoc]

I agree with the general sentiments - to sell a fantasy game you need eyecatching art - not something that Hero has ever been very good at, though to be fair, it's an expensive luxury for small gaming companies. It also requires a setting which does one (or even better) two things: one, it catches people's imaginations right out of the gate, so that they actually want to play it *before* they have sat down and read it and two - and most crucially - makes it easy for them to do so.

 

Hero games fantasy settings mostly fail at #1. There's some decent stuff there; I own a bunch of settings and have a particular fondness for Valorian age and Tuala Morn. But I was already a sucker for "savage Age of Conan" or "Red Branch" style stories, so I was an easy sell ... and I still bought them mostly to help support Hero. Jump-off-the-shelf-and-play-me, they weren't. Now I realise that the art and visual oomph is a hard issue - good art costs, and good design sense is not something everybody has. It's not impossible to pull off though: Green Ronin and Fantasy Flight Games have all proven that. You can also get by with less than stellar design if you have a simple concept hook. This is what Savage Worlds have done. As noted above, people don't generally buy Savage Worlds games because they are enamoured of the system. It's because they want to lead the Howling Commandos against Nazi war-walkers and zombie shocktroops, or fight prohibition era crime with a couple of chromed .45's. "A well thought-out and original fantasy world!" is not a hook - it's a description.

 

But sadly, ALL hero system settings fail at #2 and they do so big time. These are settings books for people who already own the core rules. Many of them are well thought out and well-written, but they face the high barrier that their target audience is almost entirely people who already play Hero. And we already know that's a hard sell.

 

So ... I've been thinking about this, and also about the Fantasy Hero Companion. I think that the best approach would be to try and deal with both problems. #1 is harder - you could try developing a killer setting and use that as your base. The trouble with killer settings is that they are like pornography - you know it when you see it, but it's hard to define in advance. So one alternative is to try to sell it as a game which lets you play ALL the killer settings. That's kind of a tough row to hoe, though - without a setting, it means that the game is not actually pick-up-and-play.

 

#2 oddly enough, is easier. There's been argument over whether the mechanics should be in the front of the book or the back. My heretical suggestion is that the core rules should not be in the book AT ALL. Instead, use the core rules to design a simpler pick-up and play game, with a GM section in the back explaining (very loosely, with a few details) how these package were built and pointing the GM towards the core rules book if they want to customise.

 

Hero purists might blanch, but I'm not suggesting actually simplifying or altering the rules. I'm talking about hiding the mechanics so that players (and to a large extent, the GM) simply don't have to deal with them. I discussed this approach in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88214-impromptu-hero-old-school-adventures-with-indie-style/) and can attest that it works. I got 6 players - including one who had never played anything but D&D - to make up perfectly functional rules-legal Hero system characters in less than half an hour, with no prep. on the player's part, except popping open a cold beer. And then we played. The thing is, that you could continue to play using the simplified system indefinately - or, as time went on, you could keep the simplified approach, but allow players to tweak the packages - or you could go full out Hero system. You can take existing Hero system characters and drop them directly into such a system. It's not precisely Hero, but it is precisely Hero compatible. And you could do this for any genre, tweaking the packages as you go.

 

Because honestly, as things stand right now, I don't see much cross-over appeal in the Hero system as currently presented. I love it to bits, of course, but I'm not the target market for a book like Fantasy Hero Complete, or any entry-level book.

 

cheers, Mark

[Chris Goodwin]

Mark, I think I missed that thread, but I wish I hadn't. It's exactly what I was talking about above when I mentioned a "front end".

[Tasha]

Because outside of D&D and it's derivatives, a games setting is generally it's primary appeal and the setting is usually why people play the game.

 

Lets look at the 4th edition of HERO as an example.

 

Most of the player were champions players, who were invested in the champions universe. it wasnt until the release of the 5th edition that Hero's universal legacy was fully recognized and it broke away from the immediate association with Champions.

 

And ultimately any other approach to appeal to a wider audience always comes back to changing the system in some fairly significant ways and for me that is inconceivable.

 

Now i sound like The Sicillian.

 

Do you really Know that a majority of 4e Hero's players were Players who were invested in Champions? 4e had a decent following of Fantasy Hero Players and Espionage/Danger International players. When 4th edition hit my group hadn't really played Champions in years. Until 4th edition there wasn't really much of a Champions Universe. That was something that was more of a 4th edition thing, than anything from earler editions.

[Tasha]

When talking about the success of Savage Worlds, I think it is worth pointing out that it began as a new set of mechanics for Deadlands. I suspect that more Savage Worlds Deluxe books get sold to players who are fascinated by the Deadlands setting(s), than for any other reason.

 

To my mind, the system's ongoing success is a tribute to the wealth of settings available, not primarily the mechanics. I doubt very many players read a brief summary of the game system and thought, gee I'd love to play with that system! I do, however, believe that lots of people read the brief summaries of settings like 50 Fathoms, Deadlands Noir, Weird Wars, Hell on Earth, and East Texas University and thought, wow I'd sure like to play in those worlds! The fact that learning the Savage Worlds game system was the intellectual price of admission was, I'm sure, entirely besides the point.

 BTW Savage Worlds was the System behind the "Great Rail Wars" Miniatures game. They just expanded it to include other genres. Deadlands wasn't converted to Savage worlds until a bunch of other Genres were released. BTW nearly every Savage worlds Plot Point Campaign Book (BTW they are all written up as outlines for a Campaign arc) assumes that you own a copy of Savage Worlds core rules. Each genre book includes new expanded rules required to run that Plot Point Campaign. Some even require that you own one of the Genre Toolkits.

 

The big difference between Hero and Savage worlds is that Savage worlds Core Rules is a full color Trade Paperback that runs $10. So it's a great value and something that people will pickup on a whim (it's hard to lose when the game is only 10 bucks).

 

Hero's genre books try to be the definiative last word on running a game in a particular genre. Savage Worlds presents a 10-20 part adventure outline usually with side quests. They have some maps for stuff that is important. Also special mechanics and Character archetypes are included. Many series also have downloadable pregenerated characters. I believe that Hero would go far if they did something similar. Introducing similar supplements that do what a Plot Point campaign does. This gives GM's everything they need to run including characters. They just need players and dice. 

[Tasha]

I agree with the general sentiments - to sell a fantasy game you need eyecatching art - not something that Hero has ever been very good at, though to be fair, it's an expensive luxury for small gaming companies. It also requires a setting which does one (or even better) two things: one, it catches people's imaginations right out of the gate, so that they actually want to play it *before* they have sat down and read it and two - and most crucially - makes it easy for them to do so.

 

Hero games fantasy settings mostly fail at #1. There's some decent stuff there; I own a bunch of settings and have a particular fondness for Valorian age and Tuala Morn. But I was already a sucker for "savage Age of Conan" or "Red Branch" style stories, so I was an easy sell ... and I still bought them mostly to help support Hero. Jump-off-the-shelf-and-play-me, they weren't. Now I realise that the art and visual oomph is a hard issue - good art costs, and good design sense is not something everybody has. It's not impossible to pull off though: Green Ronin and Fantasy Flight Games have all proven that. You can also get by with less than stellar design if you have a simple concept hook. This is what Savage Worlds have done. As noted above, people don't generally buy Savage Worlds games because they are enamoured of the system. It's because they want to lead the Howling Commandos against Nazi war-walkers and zombie shocktroops, or fight prohibition era crime with a couple of chromed .45's. "A well thought-out and original fantasy world!" is not a hook - it's a description.

 

But sadly, ALL hero system settings fail at #2 and they do so big time. These are settings books for people who already own the core rules. Many of them are well thought out and well-written, but they face the high barrier that their target audience is almost entirely people who already play Hero. And we already know that's a hard sell.

 

So ... I've been thinking about this, and also about the Fantasy Hero Companion. I think that the best approach would be to try and deal with both problems. #1 is harder - you could try developing a killer setting and use that as your base. The trouble with killer settings is that they are like pornography - you know it when you see it, but it's hard to define in advance. So one alternative is to try to sell it as a game which lets you play ALL the killer settings. That's kind of a tough row to hoe, though - without a setting, it means that the game is not actually pick-up-and-play.

 

#2 oddly enough, is easier. There's been argument over whether the mechanics should be in the front of the book or the back. My heretical suggestion is that the core rules should not be in the book AT ALL. Instead, use the core rules to design a simpler pick-up and play game, with a GM section in the back explaining (very loosely, with a few details) how these package were built and pointing the GM towards the core rules book if they want to customise.

 

Hero purists might blanch, but I'm not suggesting actually simplifying or altering the rules. I'm talking about hiding the mechanics so that players (and to a large extent, the GM) simply don't have to deal with them. I discussed this approach in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88214-impromptu-hero-old-school-adventures-with-indie-style/) and can attest that it works. I got 6 players - including one who had never played anything but D&D - to make up perfectly functional rules-legal Hero system characters in less than half an hour, with no prep. on the player's part, except popping open a cold beer. And then we played. The thing is, that you could continue to play using the simplified system indefinately - or, as time went on, you could keep the simplified approach, but allow players to tweak the packages - or you could go full out Hero system. You can take existing Hero system characters and drop them directly into such a system. It's not precisely Hero, but it is precisely Hero compatible. And you could do this for any genre, tweaking the packages as you go.

 

Because honestly, as things stand right now, I don't see much cross-over appeal in the Hero system as currently presented. I love it to bits, of course, but I'm not the target market for a book like Fantasy Hero Complete, or any entry-level book.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

I have been thinking that there should only be enough rules to explain how the character's skills and abilities work and the combat rules that the supplement needs. The character sheets in the supplement should be easy, and leave off stuff that isn't important (ie costs, and all point values). Also, there should be a list of where the Character would put their experience as they get enough to buy things up. Online there should be a section for the supplement that includes PDF's of the characters detailed to the minutae that veterans think they need. Also character packs for Hero Designer. Hero Designer should also have an export format that outputs characters in the streamlined format of the supplement. All supplements should point to one of the "complete" rule books, letting players and GM's know where they have to look for customization.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Do you really Know that a majority of 4e Hero's players were Players who were invested in Champions? 4e had a decent following of Fantasy Hero Players and Espionage/Danger International players. When 4th edition hit my group hadn't really played Champions in years. Until 4th edition there wasn't really much of a Champions Universe. That was something that was more of a 4th edition thing, than anything from earler editions.

This is an assumption of mine based on personal experience.

 

Absolutely everyone I met IRL came to Hero via Champions.  Without exception.  Myself included.  The guys that introduced me to Hero, did so through Champions.  Then once I got online, one of the first things I did was seek out a Hero system forum.  This was still in the 4th edition days, before the release of the 5th edition.  The vast majority of the Hero players on the message boards back then were hardcore Champions players, and most of the discussion back then reflected that fact.  I was coming at the system from the perspective of Heroic level Fantasy and Sci-fi gaming and had a very difficult time finding anyone who agreed with my approach.  Until the 5th edition was released and much of the material from that version matched up with a lot of my system perspective and eventually people began to change their tune.

 

For example: I suggested in the 4th edition days that characters other than mages be allowed to purchase various powers (as custom Talents) but about 90% of the message board disagreed with me, pointing to a passage in Fantasy Hero where it mentions that in general, only mages and clerics get to purchase powers (as spells) and that the other character types should not normally be allowed to do so.  I ignored that of course, and developed builds resembling Deadly Blow and Targeting Skill levels.  I suggested Two Weapon Fighting as a variation of the Sweep rules (Steve Long was going to put this into the 4th edition Ultimate Martial Artist, but it was edited out) and developed a method for Turning Undead using the PRE attack rules years before that option appeared in the 5th edition version of Fantasy Hero.

 

Now I could be wrong that the majority of Hero players came from the Champions side of the system, but I don't think so.  

[Markdoc]

Hero's genre books try to be the definiative last word on running a game in a particular genre. 

 

And this, I think, is part of the problem. Like so much of Hero, the world books have tended to be toolkit oriented. Instead of saying "This is how you do it" they say "You could do it like this, or like this, or even like this, if you want." For an experienced GM, that's great. But that's not what we're talking about here. For a newbie GM, a proliferation of choices is almost as unhelpful as no choices. 

 

Even the most detailed of the Hero setting books, like Valdorian age give you a setting in which you can run a game, but they are not a game in and of themselves. That's doubly true of genre books like Fantasy Hero. You can't simply take the setting book and with a few tweaks start running a game. Now if you are into worldbuilding, as many GMs - and pretty much all Hero system GMs - are, then that's great. But it's not an effective gateway to sales, because it assumes that you have a Hero GM - or wannabe Hero GM - ready to run. In contrast, if I look at Savage World Products or Pathfinder adventure paths, I could pick one of those up and run a game with almost no difficulty, and very little prep. time beyond reading. Heck, with access to the core rulebooks for each system to help with translation, I could run it in Hero system with only a few hours prep. for each session.

 

I don't want to be overly negative: I just want to stress that delivering a useful product to your fans requires a different approach from delivering a product that will make fans of unbelievers ... ahem, that is to say, the more casual gamers.

 

cheers, Mark

[Tasha]

This is an assumption of mine based on personal experience.

 

Absolutely everyone I met IRL came to Hero via Champions.  Without exception.  Myself included.  The guys that introduced me to Hero, did so through Champions.  Then once I got online, one of the first things I did was seek out a Hero system forum.  This was still in the 4th edition days, before the release of the 5th edition.  The vast majority of the Hero players on the message boards back then were hardcore Champions players, and most of the discussion back then reflected that fact.  I was coming at the system from the perspective of Heroic level Fantasy and Sci-fi gaming and had a very difficult time finding anyone who agreed with my approach.  Until the 5th edition was released and much of the material from that version matched up with a lot of my system perspective and eventually people began to change their tune.

 

For example: I suggested in the 4th edition days that characters other than mages be allowed to purchase various powers (as custom Talents) but about 90% of the message board disagreed with me, pointing to a passage in Fantasy Hero where it mentions that in general, only mages and clerics get to purchase powers (as spells) and that the other character types should not normally be allowed to do so.  I ignored that of course, and developed builds resembling Deadly Blow and Targeting Skill levels.  I suggested Two Weapon Fighting as a variation of the Sweep rules (Steve Long was going to put this into the 4th edition Ultimate Martial Artist, but it was edited out) and developed a method for Turning Undead using the PRE attack rules years before that option appeared in the 5th edition version of Fantasy Hero.

 

Now I could be wrong that the majority of Hero players came from the Champions side of the system, but I don't think so.  

That's very different from the statement "Most of the player were champions players, who were invested in the champions universe. it wasnt until the release of the 5th edition that Hero's universal legacy was fully recognized and it broke away from the immediate association with Champions."

 

Yes, I agree that most players STARTED as Champions players, but that doesn't mean that they didn't migrate to other forms of the game as they became aware of them or as genre boredom took them to other games. Unfortunately for those of us who like using Hero System for something OTHER than Champions, the focus of Steve Long and DOJ has been toward a Champions Centric view of the rules. The idea that everything must be statted out in the game, that every little advantage should be paid for, that every little limitation should be felt is something that I believe is bad for the system.

 

Your post touches on another important thing to remember about the online Hero Community. People are very afraid of change and don't like anything that might challenge the way they have "always done things". IMHO it's one of the biggest failings of our community, the inability to look at new ideas and try to see the merits in the idea before they shoot them down.