TheQuestionMan Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I like having a Package Deal/Template/Character Sheet of an Archmage to use as a guideline. The Symbols/Artifacts of the office of the Archmage would help too. What Pacts does the Archmage need? What Allies does the Archmage have? What substitutes could an Mystic/Mage use to duplicate the resources of past Archmages of Champions Earth Universe? What is the history of the Archmage? Who was the First Archmage? How does one become the Archmage? Is there a mantle of power that is transfered from the old to the new? Have there been breaks in the line of succession before? Alternate Dimensions/Realities/Times versions of the Archmage exist? Where to start? QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Just seems like in the comics when someone dies its a front page collectible event but in the Champions Universe they're dropping off left and right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Most of the deaths of heroes and villains in the current published setting occured before 2002, when Champions Universe for Fifth Edition was printed. I imagine that was meant to give the setting a sense of passing history, and in this way the timeline actually does address the issue raised in this thread of supers not aging, retiring, having successors, etc. Among others, the CU is on its tenth Black Mask, third Brawler, third Meteorman, third Scarlet Archer, second Johnny Hercules... It's just since 2002 that the ravages of time appear to have slowed. Much like the publication schedule (which I'm sure isn't coincidental). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I like having a Package Deal/Template/Character Sheet of an Archmage to use as a guideline. The Symbols/Artifacts of the office of the Archmage would help too. What Pacts does the Archmage need? What Allies does the Archmage have? What substitutes could an Mystic/Mage use to duplicate the resources of past Archmages of Champions Earth Universe? What is the history of the Archmage? Who was the First Archmage? How does one become the Archmage? Is there a mantle of power that is transfered from the old to the new? Have there been breaks in the line of succession before? Alternate Dimensions/Realities/Times versions of the Archmage exist? Where to start? QM Start with the background of the Archmage as described in Ultimate Mystic. Several of those issues are addressed, some briefly, others definitively; and much could be derived and extrapolated from that info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Damn, now I got to run down a copy. Darn it. QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 EDIT ALERT: In my previous post I typed "Mystic Masters" due to haste and obvious advancing senility. What I meant was that all current official info about the Archmage is in The Mystic World, for HERO 5E. Do not look for Mystic Masters for answers to your questions, as any relevant data was translated to TMW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Well, QM, here's a *brief* overview of the ARchmage-related information in The Mystic World. It should answer some of your questions: Mystic tradition holds that the line of Archmages began with Thanoro Azoic -- whoever, or whatever, he, she, or it was. It happend so long ago that mystics have only a name, which might be a mistake or mistranscription. The line of archmages broke in Hellenistic times. The mage Thestor restored it. How? It's a secret. (That's a small joke.) Thestor's grimoire, the Krypticon, was passed from archmage to archmage with ol' Bohdan the last known owner. Presumably it got blowed up real good along with the rest of Bohdan's sanctum, but I gave a writeup of the book so there's hope yet. Seven archmages came after Thestor. One, the Eternal Tulku, retired from the office. He's still alive but deeply senile most of the time. He and Bohdan are the only other named archmages. (The rest are left for you to fill in to suit the needs of your campaign.) An archmage must obtain gifts of power from denizens of all four Imaginal Realms: the syncretic Heaven of Elysium, the Netherworld of all Hells, the Land of Legends, and Babylon the City of Man. OTOH, the archmage cannot be bound to any spiritual power. An archmage must also know a spell called the Quaternion Banishment that provides Earth's ultimate defense against invasion from the Outer Planes. Some mages actively try to become archmage, including supervillains like the Demonologist. Being evil is no disqualifier! Some of Earth's most powerful mages, however, *aren't* in the running, or at least they don't seem to want the job. The Sylvestri Patriarch is obviously disqualified because he's bound to the Dragon. (Note that Demonologist isn't disqualified by his favored style of magic: He exploits demons but never sold his soul.) OTOH, Adrian Vandaleur and Doctor Yin Wu have no obvious impediment but have outlived multiple archmages. Dean Shomshak Lord Liaden and TheQuestionMan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 How many points would you use to create an Archmage of Champions Earth. Come to think of it has anyone ever statted out an Archmage? Thanks for the info. It expands a littke from The Mystic World sourcebook page 57 and 58. Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 How many points would you use to create an Archmage of Champions Earth. Come to think of it has anyone ever statted out an Archmage? Thanks for the info. It expands a littke from The Mystic World sourcebook page 57 and 58. Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I dunno. Marvel Universe has been scripted out far into the past, thousands of years, yet they seem to get by well enough without killing off hosts of characters. As a comic book simulation, its not very accurate, let's say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Are you kidding? Marvel and DC seemingly kill six or seven heroes before breakfast these days, they invent them to kill them off. The guys who don't get killed off are the cash cows. In an RPG that's the PC's. ...who get killed and brought back. Hi Jean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deceased_American_comic_book_characters#Marvel_Comics bigbywolfe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Nobody stays dead though, its like some time on vacation or a spell in the hospital. In the Champions Universe people are kacked left and right and are just... dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Worst thing Marvel ever did was to bring Bucky back. Bastiches. culhwch and wcw43921 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Nobody stays dead though, its like some time on vacation or a spell in the hospital. In the Champions Universe people are kacked left and right and are just... dead. And I hear the cynical jokes about character "deaths" at Marvel and DC all the time from fans. Nobody takes them seriously, because everyone expects them to be reversed or retconned in future. There's no drama to them. Personally, I prefer the way the Champions Universe has handled it. Less genre-like? Maybe. But more substantive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Heh. In DC's Earth-2, and it's weekly spinoff, they've killed off Superman three times so far. The second one was a kind of Bizarro. The third was apparently the real thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Nobody stays dead though, its like some time on vacation or a spell in the hospital. In the Champions Universe people are kacked left and right and are just... dead. No, lots of them stay dead. They're just fringe heroes and villains. Much like the NPC's killed in RPG's bigbywolfe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm trying to think of a single character that's died in the Marvel Universe and stayed dead. Even some of the really dumb ones that were killed by Scourge during the late 80s have come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rails Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 They couldn't even leave Maggott dead, so I'm guessing no character concept is too stupid to revive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm trying to think of a single character that's died in the Marvel Universe and stayed dead. Even some of the really dumb ones that were killed by Scourge during the late 80s have come back. you may be right, I don't follow Marvel or DC much anymore. However, nothing says that Steve didn't have plans to bring someone back. So while your argument that the CU has a higher body count is, IMO off, It certainly has a lower resurrection count. Now let's see: how many of the kids who bought it in the Initiative series came back? Admittedly one kid was a clone. Wolverine still dead? Gwen Stacy? Titania I? Red Norville? Mandarin I? Abomination? Jean Grey? Liliandra? James Henderson? Captain Stacy? Air Walker I? Mera? Captain Marvel? (his daughter?) The original Red Guardian? Porcupine? The Executioner? Egghead? Thunderbird I? Mastermind? Unus the Untouchable? Stature? Wasp? (genuinely asking, I don't know) On DC's side they wiped out entire universes and managed to keep them wiped out for almost 20 years. Then they rebooted again And again. Earth II Superman died. Dont' think the Black Lantern revival counts...unless he's still out there. Lex Luthor funded a team of young supers and then turned off their powers killing most of them...I think one was a cannibal. Is Barry Allen back from the dead? Starman Will Peyton did he die? Can't remember. Not only that, but DC wastes DNPC's like breadsticks at an Olive Garden. Ralph and Sue Dibny still deceased? The body count in the Invincible Universe has been pretty impressive. Mostly on panel and they're younger than the Champions Universe. IMAGE also killed more characters than I can count and many died on their first appearance. All said and done, I don't think the CU is particularly brutal Bronze age at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 They couldn't even leave Maggott dead, so I'm guessing no character concept is too stupid to revive. Character concepts are a separate issue. For example Porcupine is dead and will stay dead because other guys picked up the identity. There's no reason to bring the original back. Same with Union Jack. I've got a setting I'm writing in where Lady Nemesis comments that while there are genuine returns from the dead, there aren't nearly as many as the media think because they don't know when someone else picked up the identity or the Clone Arranger created a copy or a parallel universe version paid a visit and she, herself built a robot version of her deceased father to mess with his killers. That being said does the Champions Universe timeline really have all that many deaths in it anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnStrawberry Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'd have to check the source material, but in the official timeline haven't numerous heroes died facing off against Dr. Destroyer? In the destruction of Detroit and other confrontations, I seem to remember multiple members of superteams biting the big one. That would certainly indicate that epic comic-style fights are more lethal than we're generally used to seeing. But makes sense from an rpg perspective: by building up the good Doctor's past record, a gm can really make a group of players nervous when they finally confront him themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Gwen Stacey hasn't come back from the dead or Captain Mar-Vell, but most of those have; Jean Gray came back in the early 90s for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 No, lots of them stay dead. They're just fringe heroes and villains. Much like the NPC's killed in RPG's The Champions Universe does mention a few more significant heroes who died and stayed dead. The CU's Superman analogue, Vanguard, is one. He was considered the world's mightiest hero from 1959 until his death at the Battle of Detroit in 1992. Earth's first StarGuard (Green Lantern Corps analogue), Brin Rei Tarn, served over 20 years before he was killed. That being said does the Champions Universe timeline really have all that many deaths in it anyway? I made a quick Search of Champions Universe 6E for any specific mentions of heroes who died or were killed. This list includes only named superheroes, no supervillains or "civilians." Black Mask (several killed over the centuries) Bohdan Stanislavski (Archmage, 1908) American Eagle (WWII - officially "disappeared in action") Lady Lightning (WW II) Liberator (WW II) Swashbuckler I (WW II) Achilles (WW II) Comet (WW II) Ricochet (1974) Scarlet Shield (1974) Kid Chameleon (1975) Ocelot (1975) Captain Patriot (1982 - heart attack) Ameriforce One (five super-SEALs, 1983) Archangel (1987 - Takofanes's first rampage) Hardball (Takofanes) Delphi (Takofanes) Hyperkinetic Man (Takofanes) Tightwire (Takofanes) Flechette I (Takofanes) Goldfire (Takofanes) StarGuard (Brin Rei Tarn, 1990) Vanguard (Battle of Detroit, 1992) Amazing Grace (Detroit) Crusher (Detroit) Eclipse (Detroit) Firefight (Detroit) Flechette II (Detroit) Goblin (Detroit) Icestar (Detroit) Johnny Hercules I (Detroit) Nimbus (Detroit) Radion (Detroit) Shadowboxer (Detroit) Swashbuckler II (Detroit) Tiger (Detroit) Vigil (Detroit) Dr. Scarab (1994) Huntsman (pre-2004) Taiga (Russian hero, 2004 - but he actually came back) Janissary (2005 - Iraq War) Red Ensign III (Canadian hero, 2007) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Gwen Stacey hasn't come back from the dead or Captain Mar-Vell, but most of those have; Jean Gray came back in the early 90s for example. When hasn't Jean Grey come back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnStrawberry Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Liaden certainly answered my question! By my crib note calculation, the Battle of Detroit by itself is responsible for c. 38% of all official CU hero deaths (15/40). Since then, pretty low level of lethality, it would seem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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