bigbywolfe Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Gwen Stacy did come back, and apparently had an affair with Ozborn (the one that killed her and who also died and came back) or some such idiocy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Apparently even Vincent Demitrios got killed. I don't actually use the Champions Universe, it just seems like a strange representation of the comic book genre the way things are done in the comics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Liaden certainly answered my question! By my crib note calculation, the Battle of Detroit by itself is responsible for c. 38% of all official CU hero deaths (15/40). Since then, pretty low level of lethality, it would seem. Note that these are only named heroes. The actual stat could be far higher. For example, the Warlord has only been active since 1994, and according to CU p. 117, "The Warlord has killed more superheroes (28) than almost any other known supervillain." The write-up for the super-assassin Taipan, in Champions Villains Vol. 3, says that he murdered over a dozen superheroes between 1997 and 2000. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Gwen Stacy did come back, and apparently had an affair with Ozborn (the one that killed her and who also died and came back) or some such idiocy. No. She had the affair before she died, her twins came back . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Apparently even Vincent Demitrios got killed. I don't actually use the Champions Universe, it just seems like a strange representation of the comic book genre the way things are done in the comics. Vincent Dimitrios may or may not exist in the current official CU. There was no Archmage between 1908 and a few years ago, when Robert Caliburn ascended to the office (an event in the Champions Online MMORPG). In any case, I believe it's important to remember than in RPGs, our PC heroes are supposed to be THE heroes, the ones whose stories matter to us. In comics, all the heroes are "NPCs." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Apparently even Vincent Demitrios got killed. I don't actually use the Champions Universe, it just seems like a strange representation of the comic book genre the way things are done in the comics. Yeah, but I don't think that's the case; "The way things are done in the comics" is that characters die all the time and then the one's the writer's want to use again come back or weren't dead or are cloned or what have you. The only thing the comics do that the CU does not is stick themselves perpetually "within the last decade" so we have to have contrived reasons why a Teenage side kick is now in his 30's and his mentor who was in his 30's is in his 40's rather than 50's. How many heroic deaths does Jean Grey have? How many times has Earth II Superman Sacrificed himself to save the universe? (at least twice IIRC) How many cities have been destroyed in comics? IMO the CU has been very much a mishmash of Marvel and DC tropes, characters with filed of serial numbers, and Feel/Sense of Grandeur - but without the nearly century of story telling, art, and movies to back it up. I'm trying to think of any of the Superhero RPG Settings that don't have at least similar levels of violence against heroes/villains. YMMV, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well to me if they're going to be like comics, then these guys would all come back. Not be, you know, permanently dead en masse. I get the whole "see how badass our villains are?" thing but... really? Its like having the All-Star Squadron, Justice Society, and Defenders wiped out by Dr Doom in one event and never come back. And then having another villain kill dozens of superheroes. Who never come back. And then another villain do the same thing.... You get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnStrawberry Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I partially agree. It seems that comic writers go for the 'mass death/bad ass villain' feel when they can, but then weasel out of the actual consequences. When Doomsday first appeared, he crushed several junior JLA members into a bloody pulp. When Thanos had the infinity stones, he disintegrated many of the Marvel U.'s major characters. But in both cases (I'd have to check on the specifics), uh, they're not really dead! Comic fans would never stand for a permanent slaughter; since we don't have much emotional investiture in the roster of deaths above, they stay dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 If you can use the term "realism" in relation to comic-book-superhero storytelling, that actually seems more realistic to me than what we see in comics. Superheroes are supposed to be in a life-or-death struggle with supervillains, aliens, etc. for the fate of the world (or various fractions of it, or the universe...). This has been going on for 75 years in the CU. In all that time it would be bizarre for no one to have died. bigbywolfe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well to me if they're going to be like comics, then these guys would all come back. Not be, you know, permanently dead en masse. I get the whole "see how badass our villains are?" thing but... really? Its like having the All-Star Squadron, Justice Society, and Defenders wiped out by Dr Doom in one event and never come back. And then having another villain kill dozens of superheroes. Who never come back. And then another villain do the same thing.... You get the idea. Yeah, and personally I prefer it that way.Not every hero or villain killed in the comics comes back. They never have. Some do, of course. Some are replaced. The Ringer is dead - he was killed by the Scourge of the Underworld. His ex wife took the Beetle's improved Beetle armor and name to get revenge on the Scourge (who was himself killed and replaced by another and then again by Jack Monroe) This Beetle briefly led a team of Thunderbolts run by the government who all died facing Graviton. And then the Real Thunderbolts came back and defeated him. Those minor supers were never heard from again, as far as I know. And do you know why? They weren't the main characters their deaths were part of a story and once they were gone they weren't needed anymore. Much like all the heroes and villains who've died in the CU were bits of a story. the CU doesn't have the luxury (or baggage) of a decades of comics so some of the heroes/villains get short lives. What's the point of having a noble death (as apposed to creating characters to die so your villain looks like a badass) like Jean's Sacrifice, or Colossus (who is my favorite X-Man) or Doc Samson even and then hand-waiving it away? So Jean's died more than once - and even given a creepy, go ahead and sleep with the other telepath message to Cyclops from beyond the grave so I've heard - and I kind of think she deserves better. Stay Dead Jean. What the CU does, rather than sit in perpetual present and retconville, is say this guy made a sacrifice for the story of the universe. The same story could be one you played in the campaign, but if it happens off panel it happens to an NPC. The guys who come back in comics are the ones who the readers have an emotional attachment to (ie Stars of the Book in question) and not the scripted, barely identifiable Justice League Analogues, for example (I'm looking at you IMAGE Comics) who are introduced to die a few panels (at worst) or a few issues (at best) later are an NPCs (like those mentioned passing at the battle of Detroit). ...I ramble on, don't I? Sorry for latching on to this really minor argument and not letting it go. I think we're looking at slightly different aspects of the same thing - death in comics generally falls into two categories 1) Inserting pathos into story line or 2) big event. There are minor characters or heroes who have lost mass appeal who die and may or may not come back. We may see Ralph and Sue Dibney again, they brought back Jason Todd. And then we have EVENT deaths; those are BIG sales and crossovers and we will MOST DEFINITELY see those characters again. Superman, Wolverine, Captain America (Steve Rogers), Jean Grey (x2), Charles Xavier, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Monkey Joe, you know. Big names. In the CU the Big Names are meant to be PC's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 No. She had the affair before she died, her twins came back .I was misinformed, but wow, that's even dumber. Put that down in the top 10 most idiotic retcons ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well to me if they're going to be like comics, then these guys would all come back. Not be, you know, permanently dead en masse. I get the whole "see how badass our villains are?" thing but... really? Its like having the All-Star Squadron, Justice Society, and Defenders wiped out by Dr Doom in one event and never come back. And then having another villain kill dozens of superheroes. Who never come back. And then another villain do the same thing.... You get the idea. What makes you think they haven't come back from the dead? Or won't? That being said, here's a non-comprehensive list of Earth-616 superheros who haven't come back from the dead after five years or more. Aegis (Trey Rollins): Died 2009 Agatha Harkness: Died 2004 The Ancient One: Died 1974 Apex: Died 2012 Arabian Knight (Abdul Qamar): Died 2001 Black Marvel (Daniel Lyons): Died 1999 Bloke (Mickey Tork) Died 2001 Bluebird (Sally Avril) Died in a 1996 issue but actually farther back than that. Box (Roger Bochs) Died 1987 Caiera: Died 2007 Captain Marvel (Genis-Vall): Died 2006\ Captain Marvel (Mar-Vall): Died 1982 Changeling (Kevin Sydney): Died 1968! Dead Girl (Moonbeam): Died 2004 Dinah Soar: Died 2005 Doc Samson (Leonard Samson): Died 2010 Doctor Druid (Anthony Druid): Died 1995 Dryad (Callie Betts): Died 2006 El Guapo (Robbie Rodriguez): Died 2004 Feral (Maria Callasantos): Died 2007 Gertrude Yorkes: Died 2006 Grasshopper: Died 2005 Gremlin (Kondrati Yurivich Topolov): Died 1988 Hornet (Eddie McDonagh): Died 2004 Howard Stark: Died before 1970 Jackpot (Alana Jobson): Died 2008 John the Skrull: 2008 Madame Web: 2010 Major Mapleleaf (Louis Sadler Junior): 2006 Mister M: 2006 Miss America (Madeline Joyce): 1974 Mister Sensitive (Guy Smith): 2004 Night Thrasher ((Dwayne Michael Taylor): 2006 Nomad (Jack Monroe): 2005 Nova (Richard Rider): 2010 Omega the Unknown: 1979 Onyxx (Sidney Green): 2010 Outlaw Kid: Died before 2000. A long time before Phyla-Vell: 2010 Puck (Zuzha Yu): 2006 Quill (Maxwell Jordan): 2006 Risque (Gloria Dolores Muñoz): 2010 Rubbermaid (Andrea Margulies): 2006 Firefist (Rusty Collins): 1995 Scarlet Spider (Ben Reilly) 1996 Silver Fox (Kayla Silverfox) 1992 Skin (Angelo Espinosa) 2003 Spider-Woman (Mattie Franklin): 2010 Starshine (Landra): 1982 Stepford Cuckoos: 2003 Stick: 1982 Stonewall (Louis Hamilton): 1989 Super Sabre (Martin Fletcher): 1991 Synch (Everett Thomas): 2000 Thunderbird (John Proudstar): 1975 Thunderstrike (Eric Masterson): 1995 Torpedo: 1981 Two Gun Kid: Long before 2009 Union Jack (Brian Falsworth): 1953 Union Jack (James Montgomery Falsworth): 1981 Wallflower (Laurie Collins): 2006 Washout (John Lopez): 2003 Whizzer (Robert Frank): 1982 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I don't think you can include guys that died of old age reasonably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharis2000 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 I'm trying to think of a single character that's died in the Marvel Universe and stayed dead. Even some of the really dumb ones that were killed by Scourge during the late 80s have come back. The only one that come to mind is the Executioner. Walt Simonson killed him in Thor #362 in December of 1985 and he's still dead. He died in Hel's domain in Asgard and finally made it to Valhalla, so he's been seen several times... but he's still dead, and still knocking them back with the einherjar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Yeah, being dead in Asgard or its related dimensions is kind of a technicality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I don't think you can include guys that died of old age reasonably. Agreed, natural causes is probably an out. How many from that list does that remove? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I was misinformed, but wow, that's even dumber. Put that down in the top 10 most idiotic retcons ever. Only if you narrow it down to top 10 Spiderman related ones. But it was way up there on the Numbskull scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Agreed, natural causes is probably an out. How many from that list does that remove? Lemme see now, add 'em up, carry the three...roughly one, or three if we're eliminating apparent accidental deaths that have not yet been revealed to be something more. The Outlaw Kid died blowing himself up with dynamite in a very demented last stand. Captain Marvel died from cancer, but he got the cancer in action. Union Jack and Bluebird did die in car accidents after they'd abandoned the mask for what that's worth. Howard Stark died in an apparent accident but was actually murdered by his enemies. The Whizzer was very old when he died, but I can't say he died of natural causes when he ran himself to death trying to save the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. The Two-Gun Kid died of actual old age in 1937 or so, babbling to the Golden Age Angel about his future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think a lot of the deaths have been pretty recently. Howard Stark wasn't even mentioned in Iron Man comics until very recently, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think a lot of the deaths have been pretty recently. Howard Stark wasn't even mentioned in Iron Man comics until very recently, for example. Almost all of them are dated by the year the story in which they died was published. That Howard Stark had a career as something of a superhero is a fairly recent retcon but that he was apparently murdered by sabotaged brakes by his enemies was longstanding canon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think a lot of the deaths have been pretty recently. Howard Stark wasn't even mentioned in Iron Man comics until very recently, for example. If you mean Howard Stark as a hero, yes. But I can remember references and flashbacks to Howard and Maria Stark back in the 1970s, at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Weird I have no memory of him even being mentioned in Iron Man, but its been a while since I've read our run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think you have to keep in mind the difference between simulating a superhero world and simulating comics as a medium. They are related, but how closely you want to tie them is a matter of taste. One effect of the comic-book medium is that not much stays permanent: Years later, a writer or editor can undo what another writer did, and probably will. Somebody wants to tell a story about the character who was killed off umpteen years before; or somebody just wants to pull some cheap melodrama by shaking up a character's life... again. Which is why heroes' marriages rarely last. A wedding makes a dramatic turning point in a hero's life, but so does a divorce or a spouse's death. Or for lesser impact, hook ups and break ups. It's an easy way for writers to add soap-opera excitement. Like I said, cheap melodrama. After years or decades of publication, though, the resulting churn can look frantic and silly. The Scarlet Witch offers an example. For years, our time, she was married to the Vision. Then -- improbably, but she makes the improbably happen -- they had kids. And the churn begins... Oops, no they don't have kids: They were magical constructs that were actually shards of a supervillain's soul! (Huh?) The Vision loses his emotions, turns white, and their marriage breaks up. Which was about the time I stopped reading Marvel, but Wikipedia tells me she's had various hook-ups, at least one nervous breakdown, and I don't know what all. Maybe it didn't seem so frantic and silly spread over 20 years, but it sure seemed ridiculous as I read the summary. Resurrection retcons are particularly tacky when they unmake character choices, such as Jean Grey's first resurrection. As the Phoenix, she chose to die to protect the universe from herself. Oops, no, she didn't: The Phoenix wasn't really Jean Grey, the real Jean Grey was regenerating in a pod on the bottom of a lake! And the Phoenix Force is eternal, so no one really died! From one of the most dramatic events in X-Men continuity, it became a meaningless puppet show. All in all, some of the worst writing comics have ever seen. I would hope the CU, as published, could avoid *that* sort of character resurrection. (AFAIK, it has.) Dean Shomshak bigbywolfe, Christopher R Taylor, Lord Liaden and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 . . . at least one nervous breakdown . . . And early frontrunner for Understatement of the Year right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Resurrection retcons are particularly tacky when they unmake character choices, such as Jean Grey's first resurrection. As the Phoenix, she chose to die to protect the universe from herself. Oops, no, she didn't: The Phoenix wasn't really Jean Grey, the real Jean Grey was regenerating in a pod on the bottom of a lake! And the Phoenix Force is eternal, so no one really died! From one of the most dramatic events in X-Men continuity, it became a meaningless puppet show. All in all, some of the worst writing comics have ever seen. I would hope the CU, as published, could avoid *that* sort of character resurrection. (AFAIK, it has.) Dean Shomshak I agree. While the comic book precedent justifies bringing a dead PC back through any number of plot devices if desired, it certainly doesn't make it mandatory much less require every single superheroic NPC to use the revolving door of heaven. Incidentally I just discovered that there was an entire super team in the Marvel Universe, the "First Line" who in a story published in 2001 stopped a Skrull invasion in the 80s. Very few of them came back out of a line-up that included "Nightingale, Flatiron, Reflex, Oxbow, Pixie, Mister Justice, Black Fox, Firefall, Positron, Templar, Effigy, Vulcan, as well as new additions Squire (the son of Templar), Gadfly: the mutant daughter of Hippy and Sunshine, the biologically engineered Atlantean warrior Mako, and the foul mouthed Riot-Act as well as their old foe Nocturne" A couple of them came back because they were just able to survive exploding starships but most of them haven't been seen since, and I wouldn't hold my breath for their resurrection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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