Matt the Bruins Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 The MCU series don't suffer from the kind of power bloat that makes it unbelievable that Supergirl or the Flash could be handled. This. Berlanti really should have made a commitment to the weekly plots providing challenges for Supergirl that don't involve being beaten up in fights or imprisoned against her will, what with possessing godlike powers that only an incredibly rare macguffin should be able to neutralize. But that would require real thought from the writing staff, and outside of depicting a believable sisterly relationship that doesn't seem to be their forte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Straczynski once compared it to sitting in a coffee shop writing madly and as you finish each page you tape it up to the window where everyone can read it, and you're required to post a certain number of pages per hour, good bad or indifferent, and there's no changing anything you wrote earlier because it's already up on the window for everyone to see. That scenario isn't an analogy (though it sounds like one); it is quite doable if you have a modicum of talent. Harlan Ellison used to do exactly what JMS described just for kicks, which JMS was perfectly aware of when he made that comparison. Now you might point out that few tv writers are as talented as Harlan Ellison, and you'd be right. But that's not because the talent isn't out there. It's mostly because networks are inveterate cheapskates and notorious for treating creatives like dirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I would ilike Clark Kent to visit and be referred to as Strange Visitor from the Daily Planet bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Supergirl has a Multipower with a lot of powers including her STR and superspeed Running. Not only that, she convinced the GM to allow her to put Unified Power on *everything*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 That scenario isn't an analogy (though it sounds like one); it is quite doable if you have a modicum of talent. Harlan Ellison used to do exactly what JMS described just for kicks, which JMS was perfectly aware of when he made that comparison. Now you might point out that few tv writers are as talented as Harlan Ellison, and you'd be right. But that's not because the talent isn't out there. It's mostly because networks are inveterate cheapskates and notorious for treating creatives like dirt. Ah yes, I had forgotten he was referring to something his buddy Ellison had done. I think the point still stands - a lot of why so much TV writing is mediocre can be boiled down to "we had a deadline, sorry." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I think the point still stands - a lot of why so much TV writing is mediocre can be boiled down to "we had a deadline, sorry." I think that's one common excuse given, but it doesn't explain why the writing for a show like The West Wing is so uniformly excellent while the writing for most superhero shows isn't. Both are hour-long dramas with the same season lengths and production deadlines. Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I think that's one common excuse given, but it doesn't explain why the writing for a show like The West Wing is so uniformly excellent while the writing for most superhero shows isn't. Both are hour-long dramas with the same season lengths and production deadlines. Deadlines and the pressure to get X episodes filmed in Y days on Z budget is a big part of it, yes. But part of it also is low expectations for viewer intelligence and involvement, and sadly, that's often the case. I mean, we all watch Supergirl or The Flash and see plot holes big enough to throw planetoids through, and it bothers us. Most of the viewers, however, either don't see the plot holes or don't care, they just like seeing the spectacle and enjoying the character interactions. I'm not saying those other viewers are less intelligent, mind you. They have other priorities. Some are watching while they do other things, and only half paying attention. Plot contrivances and characters making dumb decisions will often fly right past them--it's happened to me on shows I wasn't deeply invested in. Some hear "science fiction" or "superheroes" and expect nonsense; nonsense they might enjoy watching, perhaps, but which they aren't going to take seriously at all. Or they just accept that plotholes and plot-induced stupidity are the price of admission; I've done that for shows I really really liked otherwise but in which the fundamental premise didn't really hold up to logical analysis. Dead Like Me, for instance. I loved that show, but the rules for how being a Reaper worked were inconsistent and often contradictory. I DIDN'T CARE. I just loved the show enough to shelve my usual demand for such things. Plus, yes, they could put the work in to make the plots better, and have the characters use their powers more efficiently. And then what? Most viewers won't notice or care. The return on the investment simply isn't worth it in most cases (with the rare exception where the showrunner is one of the people who cares about such things). TL,DR: I would like smarter writing and better plotting--I just don't expect to see it because the product as is is good enough for most casual viewers. bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Granted, the writers for some shows are better than others. I mean, obviously. But also remember West Wing was a major network show with a budget of $6M per episode, and not much of that was for sfx. Supergirl had a budget of $3M per episode when it was on CBS, and is probably less than $2M per episode on the CW. So yeah, you get what you pay for, and part of that is being able to not just hire better writers but hiring more of them so each individual writer's deadlines aren't coming as fast and frequent. (I wasn't able to find info on how many stable writers either show had for comparison, so I'm partly speculating here.) And of course Sorkin wasn't running 3 other shows at the same time, so he could give more personal attention to each script. Plus let's face it: the West Wing writers were writing about fairly normal, established situations that normal people face every day and that have been covered by TV writers for decades, so there's more "institutional knowledge" and such to fall back on. They did it better partly because they had more established ground to build on. Superhero TV shows that aren't aimed at kids are still relatively new, and they're having to make up what works and what doesn't as they go.** So even if everything else was equal* you would still expect superhero writing to be less consistent. Don't get me wrong: as a writer myself, bad writing bugs me to no end. I'm just saying it's not quite fair to dismiss Arrowverse shows as hack jobs because they don't measure up to one of the best-written shows in TV history, run by Aaron Freakin' Sorking FFS. * ...and it's not. ** Yes, "But, comics!" TV shows are not comic books, and what works in one medium doesn't always work reliably in the other, and sometimes the only way to find out what works and what doesn't is to try it and find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 This. Berlanti really should have made a commitment to the weekly plots providing challenges for Supergirl that don't involve being beaten up in fights or imprisoned against her will, what with possessing godlike powers that only an incredibly rare macguffin should be able to neutralize. But that would require real thought from the writing staff, and outside of depicting a believable sisterly relationship that doesn't seem to be their forte. And of course then, the fans would scream that there's not enough action... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Deadlines and the pressure to get X episodes filmed in Y days on Z budget is a big part of it, yes. But part of it also is low expectations for viewer intelligence and involvement, and sadly, that's often the case. I mean, we all watch Supergirl or The Flash and see plot holes big enough to throw planetoids through, and it bothers us. Most of the viewers, however, either don't see the plot holes or don't care, they just like seeing the spectacle and enjoying the character interactions. Yeah, Middle Aged Comic Geeks and Long-Time Champions Gamers isn't exactly the CW's target demographic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Yeah, Middle Aged Comic Geeks and Long-Time Champions Gamers isn't exactly the CW's target demographic. *Munches popcorn* OMG! I just know Supergirl will find true love yet.... *Blinks* Errr.. I mean... get off my lawn, young punks! *Cough* aylwin13, Nolgroth, wcw43921 and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Right, as I said, it all comes down to the people in charge deciding that the superhero genre doesn't warrant excellent writers, and enough of them to make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Ah heck with it. Flaws aside, I'm still looking forward to the cross over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 I'm disappointed with the crossover already...i thought it was this week. bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 I'm disappointed with the crossover already...i thought it was this week. In the middle of Thanksgiving weekend (that's what it is in the states right?)? I don't think television works like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Then television needs to change! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Right, as I said, it all comes down to the people in charge deciding that the superhero genre doesn't warrant excellent writers, and enough of them to make a difference. Budget comes from ratings. At it's peak West Wing was being watched by 17 million people. Arrow/Flash barely pull in 3-4 mil. If more people tuned in, they'd be throwing money & resources at the shows. Even Supergirl couldn't pull in enough viewers to justify its sfx budget, and that was on CBS. And yes, I realize there's a certain chicken-vs-egg component and maybe better writing would draw more viewers. But it's a straight-up business call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Also what we think is average writing others think is superb*, so it is a subjective call/opinion. *For instance, the actors. Have any of them been critical of the writing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Also what we think is average writing others think is superb*, so it is a subjective call/opinion. *For instance, the actors. Have any of them been critical of the writing? Unless you're an actor that gets 7 figures a movie (or 6 figures an episode) nothing good can really come from saying "My character would never say/do that! And I'm going to tell the fanbase so!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Unless you're an actor that gets 7 figures a movie (or 6 figures an episode) nothing good can really come from saying "My character would never say/do that! And I'm going to tell the fanbase so!" True, but an actor can potentially suggest things their character could do that aren't so dumb*. *dumb to us anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Budget comes from ratings. At it's peak West Wing was being watched by 17 million people. Arrow/Flash barely pull in 3-4 mil. If more people tuned in, they'd be throwing money & resources at the shows. Even Supergirl couldn't pull in enough viewers to justify its sfx budget, and that was on CBS. And yes, I realize there's a certain chicken-vs-egg component and maybe better writing would draw more viewers. But it's a straight-up business call. This is very true for the most part. However, when funding a pilot and the front thirteen, all of those costs are paid for before there are any ratings or any indication of the future success of the show. Certainly, the major networks have more money to throw at that than smaller networks like the CW, but CBS could have invested in Supergirl the way NBC invested in The West Wing, but chose not to out of what I believe is an institutionally low opinion of the genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Well Google sez CBS spent $14M on the Supergirl pilot. So not exactly chump change. But I assume most of that went into developing the sfx, something West Wing (et. al.) don't have to worry about. That's always been the catch of doing effects-heavy shows like superheroes on a TV budget: you can have decent effects or you can have other nice things like good writing, decent actors, etc, but not both. From that perspective, the CW shows have done ok in my book, particularly in terms of finding/developing good actors that'll work for cheap. So as much as I cringe at some of the writing some times, I understand why it is what it is. (And again, this is just my personal enjoyment level, YMMV etc.) Also, part of how networks judge how much to invest in a show is based on how well similar shows have done before. And superhero shows have never really made a lot of money. Call that an institutionally low opinion if you like, but it's not exactly unsupported by data, so throwing huge wads of cash at the next one before it's proven itself just isn't a sound business call. As they say, it's called show business for a reason. Edit: Google also sez West Wing's budget didn't really explode until Season 2, ie - once they realized they had a hit on their hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Well Google sez CBS spent $14M on the Supergirl pilot. So not exactly chump change. But I assume most of that went into developing the sfx, something West Wing (et. al.) don't have to worry about. That's always been the catch of doing effects-heavy shows like superheroes on a TV budget: you can have decent effects or you can have other nice things like good writing, decent actors, etc, but not both. From that perspective, the CW shows have done ok in my book, particularly in terms of finding/developing good actors that'll work for cheap. So as much as I cringe at some of the writing some times, I understand why it is what it is. (And again, this is just my personal enjoyment level, YMMV etc.) Also, part of how networks judge how much to invest in a show is based on how well similar shows have done before. And superhero shows have never really made a lot of money. Call that an institutionally low opinion if you like, but it's not exactly unsupported by data, so throwing huge wads of cash at the next one before it's proven itself just isn't a sound business call. As they say, it's called show business for a reason. Edit: Google also sez West Wing's budget didn't really explode until Season 2, ie - once they realized they had a hit on their hands. West Wing's budget went to actors, hence Callista Flockhart's exit from Supergirl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 So you think Flockhart's refusal to work in Vancouver was just a smoke screen for refusing to take a pay cut from the CW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 That's always been the catch of doing effects-heavy shows like superheroes on a TV budget: you can have decent effects or you can have other nice things like good writing, decent actors, etc, but not both. For a fraction of the money NBC threw at Martin Sheen to star in The West Wing, the CW could hire a far better caliber team of writers for Supergirl. And there's not much money to be saved in the vfx budget aside from doing no vfx at all. Costs there are already cut to the bone. If you cut all the vfx out, you might have enough to hire Flockhart back, but that's about it. The in-camera talent is always many, many times more expensive than any other production cost, including the vfx in an "effects-heavy" show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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