Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice

[Enforcer84]

in my opinion the best stories about Superman are the ones that remind us that Clark is the hero and Superman is the responsibility. I have no doubt that Clark would be a hero even with out his powers. Maybe not donning a mask but he could easily have been inspired by Mr Terrific or Wildcat. 

 

In contrast, the Batman stories that bug me the most are the ones where Batman in the hero and Bruce is the Responsibility. I think there was an issue somewhere where Nightwing says to the effect that Batman doesn't even like Bruce. That Bruce is a tool. 

 

The amusing part is - Bruce's powers dwarf Batman's and Superman's for actual change. He has billions that he can do things like fund scholarships, create foundations, put hospitals where they're needed, play the game of politics. There was an article I read about on reddit that stated (I believe it was from the Guardian) that 76 people account for 41% of the political spending in the UK. Bruce is played like a moron and Batman goes after streetgangs and individual psychopaths or becomes Mary Sue Man in the Pages of team books as proof that the 'mere' human is the most dangerous man alive.

 

Now I'm almost certain Bruce puts his money to good use and Money as a Superpower is only effective for Villains (hi Lex!) in the DC universe but still. Bruce is the richest man in a cesspool town he could probably own, and he seemingly tries to keep it safe one mugger at a time. 

[Michael Hopcroft]

in my opinion the best stories about Superman are the ones that remind us that Clark is the hero and Superman is the responsibility. I have no doubt that Clark would be a hero even with out his powers. Maybe not donning a mask but he could easily have been inspired by Mr Terrific or Wildcat. 

That is probably the reason Superman  is beloved in American popular culture. He is the man who has devoted his life to showing that there are times when Lord Acton was wrong. At least in the classical view of the character, he probably could conquer the planet any time he wanted to. And do a better job of running it than most of the people doing it now. But he doesn't, even though he's had people on their knees begging him to lead them to glory, because he genuinely believes that human beings should be free to make their own decisions. One of the late pre-Crisis stories featured Superman waking from one of a series of nightmares about nuclear war (he dreamed he was the only person who survived a nuclear attack on Metropolis) and exploring in his mind the ways he could use his powers to take away man's deadly toys before deciding that trying to control that meant he couldn't do all the little acts of kindness and individual rescues that meant so much to him. Superman enjoys doing things like saving the window washer whose scaffolding is about to collapse. And he also enjoys helping the world get better through journalism and writing -- Clark Kent may be "mild-mannered", but he's not going to back down in the face of injustice.

 

Batman doesn't hate injustice so much as he hates crime. He isn't nearly as offended by homelessness and poverty as he is by thieves and thugs. Bruce Wayne is a philanthropist who does a lot of public charity work -- but then so is Lex Luthor. His heart may be in it a little more than Lex's is, but for him it's part of the disguise.

 

That';s the fundamental difference between then that is completely lost on Snyder. Superman loves Justice, and Batman craves Revenge. Is it not for nothing that the classic Animated Series for Batman takes place mostly as night, while Superman flies under the bright light of day.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

My understanding is that Luthor is the catalyst that sends Supes after Bats.

 

Reverse that; Lex gets Batman to go after Supes.

[薔薇語]

E84:

In regards to Bruce, yes he can do a lot of good. And he does do so. We get references to the countless Wayne foundation projects in various media. The animated series showed Bruce attending a few charity balls and have various Wayne Industries philanthropic set pieces (hospitals, homeless shelters, etc). The Nolan movies also reference him giving to charity and trying to maintain a positive presence via the Wayne Corp. The comics have also done such things.

 

Really, the thing you seem to want is "Corporate Wayne" comics. And unfortunately that just isn't all that interesting. Reading about Bruce attending a quarterly fiscal report board meeting is not the page turning we might want it to be. Watching him choose between funding a homeless shelter or a re-tooling seminar for the unemployed just isn't going to grab viewers.

Batman grabs viewers. Watching him foil the latest Riddler Scheme. Watching him knock out Two-Face. Watching him deal with the tragedy brought on by the Joker.  

 

Now, I get that we have him sometimes seeming to show disdain for his Bruce persona, but ask yourself why? He gets the immediate gratification for saving lives and stopping bad guys as Batman. He is powerful, capable, respected, and NEEDED. As Bruce he is rich and powerful but is still just one cog in a machine; a big cog, but a cog. It takes years to get a hospital to pass through the corporate and political hoops. Years more before you can see its effects. In the meantime Bruce is stuck waiting to simply sign off on something he already demanded be done months ago. He is powerful and helpless all at once. But Batman isn't. Batman is power personified. He acts when he wishes to act. He commands respect because of his abilities and knowledge, not because of his lineage and money. If he sees a problem, he can fix it quickly. 

 

So, I can understand why Wayne would prefer the Bat over the Bruce. I can see why the readership prefers the Bat over the Bruce. And regardless of all of that, the Bruce is still doing the things you want him to do, they just aren't center stage because duh. 

 

That said, there are still plenty of issues to have with him. And I don't disagree that he is a bit of an overhyped character. I still like him more than Superman, though. ^^ And at least I have seen good Batman movies - there are no good Superman movies. Perhaps Batman will be able to help Superman out with that in this newest movie. 

 

La Rose. 

[Pattern Ghost]

Hmm . . . Batsniper is interesting. Wonder what's up with that? (Still from the trailer):

 

[NuSoardGraphite]

I could see this as a possible plot - superman's guilt at not saving everyone / having to kill Zod made him realize him limitations (and the Batman thing just helps this along) and that is the emotional foundation of the Justice League - getting together a group of people so that doesn't happen again.

What i was hoping that they would do is having killed Zod weighs on him so heavily that he vows never to kill again, then after a few Justice League movies (culminating with an all out battle with Darkseid and the forces of Apocalypse) they do one final Superman movie where he battles Doomsday and it getsnso bad, he has to struggle with possibly breaking his vow and killing Doomsday or risk the monster destroying all of human civilization.

[Iuz the Evil]

Batsniper. Jesus.

[NuSoardGraphite]

http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2014/03/david-s-goyer-on-comic-book-movie-fans.html

 

Asshat. (Just my opinion. Blade Trinity broke me)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Batsniper. Jesus.

Mqybe its a long range delivery method for the Bat-tracking device.

[Pattern Ghost]

He  Goyer* has a pretty high opinion of himself, doesn't he?

 

 

*NSG has a faster trigger finger than me tonight.

[BlueCloud2k2]

I had to go back and re-watch the trailer... first time through I thought that was part of the radio tower and he was holding onto it...

 

WTF?

[Pattern Ghost]

Yeah, same here. I read it as antenna when watching the trailer.

 

But hey, maybe I didn't know that I wanted a Batsniper!

[Enforcer84]

E84:

 

In regards to Bruce, yes he can do a lot of good. And he does do so. We get references to the countless Wayne foundation projects in various media. The animated series showed Bruce attending a few charity balls and have various Wayne Industries philanthropic set pieces (hospitals, homeless shelters, etc). The Nolan movies also reference him giving to charity and trying to maintain a positive presence via the Wayne Corp. The comics have also done such things.

 

Really, the thing you seem to want is "Corporate Wayne" comics. And unfortunately that just isn't all that interesting. Reading about Bruce attending a quarterly fiscal report board meeting is not the page turning we might want it to be. Watching him choose between funding a homeless shelter or a re-tooling seminar for the unemployed just isn't going to grab viewers.

 

Batman grabs viewers. Watching him foil the latest Riddler Scheme. Watching him knock out Two-Face. Watching him deal with the tragedy brought on by the Joker.  

 

Now, I get that we have him sometimes seeming to show disdain for his Bruce persona, but ask yourself why? He gets the immediate gratification for saving lives and stopping bad guys as Batman. He is powerful, capable, respected, and NEEDED. As Bruce he is rich and powerful but is still just one cog in a machine; a big cog, but a cog. It takes years to get a hospital to pass through the corporate and political hoops. Years more before you can see its effects. In the meantime Bruce is stuck waiting to simply sign off on something he already demanded be done months ago. He is powerful and helpless all at once. But Batman isn't. Batman is power personified. He acts when he wishes to act. He commands respect because of his abilities and knowledge, not because of his lineage and money. If he sees a problem, he can fix it quickly. 

 

So, I can understand why Wayne would prefer the Bat over the Bruce. I can see why the readership prefers the Bat over the Bruce. And regardless of all of that, the Bruce is still doing the things you want him to do, they just aren't center stage because duh. 

 

That said, there are still plenty of issues to have with him. And I don't disagree that he is a bit of an overhyped character. I still like him more than Superman, though. ^^ And at least I have seen good Batman movies - there are no good Superman movies. Perhaps Batman will be able to help Superman out with that in this newest movie. 

 

La Rose. 

nah. I don't mind Batman in his own books aside from his grating personality. It's the Bat God they make him. Bruce isn't a bad man. Batman isn't a bad man, but he's a real prick. And more dangerous to his fellow heroes than villains as he always seems to be able to beat up the guys on his team. 

 

And I'd say the Chris Reeves movies were pretty good and the Batman films have been ok to bad depending on how serious they take themselves. I know I'm in the minority on the Batman hate but I don't mind being right and alone

[Enforcer84]

I had to go back and re-watch the trailer... first time through I thought that was part of the radio tower and he was holding onto it...

 

WTF?

 

 

Yeah, same here. I read it as antenna when watching the trailer.

 

But hey, maybe I didn't know that I wanted a Batsniper!

 

Well if Luthor is trying to get Supes to go after Batman, maybe having a fake Batman snipe an underworld rival would help show that Batman needs to be brought to justice? 

[Ranxerox]

Wow, this trailer really has me psyched 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... to sit this one out.

 

 

Actually, I'm a fan of Zack Snyder, but I think he is a terrible choice to direct any Superman movie.  Snyder deals in high octane noir and Superman should never be done as noir.

[Pattern Ghost]

Well if Luthor is trying to get Supes to go after Batman, maybe having a fake Batman snipe an underworld rival would help show that Batman needs to be brought to justice? 

 

Could be. I'm sure they wouldn't do anything stupid like have a hero with a well-known aversion to guns use one frivolously.

[Lord Liaden]

I had to go back and re-watch the trailer... first time through I thought that was part of the radio tower and he was holding onto it...

 

WTF?

 

 

Yeah, same here. I read it as antenna when watching the trailer.

 

But hey, maybe I didn't know that I wanted a Batsniper!

 

Didn't Frank Miller draw him carrying something that looked like a sniper rifle in The Dark Knight Returns? And it was a fake-out -- turned out to be a long-range grappling gun.

 

If this was the same sort of thing here, it would make sense; there's plainly a strong Frank Miller influence on this movie.

[Lord Liaden]

I've watched a number of videos on YouTube of people "reacting" to first seeing this trailer. The almost-universal response is that they think it looks very cool and exciting. Maybe comics fans like us are out of step with the movie fans, and this film will be generally well received and successful even if many of us aren't happy with it.

[Hermit]

I've watched a number of videos on YouTube of people "reacting" to first seeing this trailer. The almost-universal response is that they think it looks very cool and exciting. Maybe comics fans like us are out of step with the movie fans, and this film will be generally well received and successful even if many of us aren't happy with it.

Quite likely.  One of the reasons we comics fans cringe I think when we see a change that appears a complete 180 from the character we knew introduced is the fear it will succeed. That the movie/tv show will not only betray the character as we knew/loved him/her, but that the taint of it will spread to the comics as well. Sometimes, of course, a new take is actually a good thing and can salvage a concept we saw as a failure, or let us appreciate said character in a new way, but we also don't want someone pissing in the well we've been drinking from happily.

[Ragitsu]

In a broader sense, I don't mind something succeeding (the original material is almost always going to be available). After all, this is a nation of McDonalds and reality TV. That which is popular is not always of high quality. Plus, we're experiencing a "dark is true art" pop culture trend at the moment.

 

That said, I rail against "darker and dumber" adaptations for the sheer principle of the matter. True coolness does not arise merely from the desire for coolness, but from the creation of something that's actually good.

[薔薇語]

nah. I don't mind Batman in his own books aside from his grating personality. It's the Bat God they make him. Bruce isn't a bad man. Batman isn't a bad man, but he's a real prick. And more dangerous to his fellow heroes than villains as he always seems to be able to beat up the guys on his team.

 

And I'd say the Chris Reeves movies were pretty good and the Batman films have been ok to bad depending on how serious they take themselves. I know I'm in the minority on the Batman hate but I don't mind being right and alone

I dislike the Reeves' movies, too. I get that people like them but I can't fathom why. Maybe me and old films and shows just don't mix. I wasn't 8 when I first saw them like ao many others so I don't get the benefit of rose tented glasses when viewing.

 

Same holds true for TOS vs Next Gen. I love Picard and can't stand Kurk. Same for Star Wars; saw all of them as a kid (ish) and like them all. I don't get the hatred of Jar Jar by the people who like Ewoks or Chewy.

 

Anyway, rant over. Batman as BatGod is a bit much. I like it from time to time but at some point we have to realize that the guy is just a guy; not a god. And he doesn't need to be one. So to that extent you and I agree.

 

La Rose.

[Ragitsu]

Edit: never mind!

[assault]

 

And at least I have seen good Batman movies - there are no good Superman movies.

 

I'd phrase that as "there are no good Superman live action movies".

 

There are good animated ones.

[Enforcer84]

Could be. I'm sure they wouldn't do anything stupid like have a hero with a well-known aversion to guns use one frivolously.

He does seem to use bullets from his bat jet. But I'm willing to substitute my reality on the rooftop sniper Batman.

[Enforcer84]

I've watched a number of videos on YouTube of people "reacting" to first seeing this trailer. The almost-universal response is that they think it looks very cool and exciting. Maybe comics fans like us are out of step with the movie fans, and this film will be generally well received and successful even if many of us aren't happy with it.

Are the videos sponsored by the movie studio?

(kidding)