Enforcer84 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Superhero "deconstruction" started in the 80's so it's old enough to have kids in college. And it brought us mostly swearing, sexing, and punching through faces, and more cynicism than you can shake a Log at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 The central concept of having "heroes" and "villains" in the first place might be part of the argument. If there are good guys, then they're always going to win because that's how we're raised to expect movies to work. One of the problems is that we come to expect life to work out that way as well, and become cynical and over-detached when we find out it doesn't. How do you live your life when you conclude the only thing good intentions will ever get you is a well-paved road to Hell? In Miracleman and Watchmen, Alan Moore carried that cynicism to its logical extreme. Heroism is a lie. Those who truly believe in it are foolish or mad. All giving people power will do is give those people opportunities to muck up the world, by design or accident. Power does more than corrupt -- Power is Corruption. Even the greatest of heroes was not immune: in "Whatever Happened to Superman?", Moore portrayed every good deed Superman had ever done in his entire life being unraveled and made pointless. In the end his only choices were to break his most sacred taboo and then obliterate his powers permanently and become an ordinary mortal to live out his life. He finally concluded that "Superman was overrated". Now I am the last person who would want to see a Superman movie that dark, nor am I the sort of person who wants to be so cynical that even good becomes evil. But that doesn't indicate people should be thinking in four colors either. Superpowers drive stories -- the question is what sort of story you want to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Alan Moore is grossly overrated as a superhero fiction writer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Do you really think "Heroism is a lie" is a logical extreme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 The central concept of having "heroes" and "villains" in the first place might be part of the argument. If there are good guys, then they're always going to win because that's how we're raised to expect movies to work. One of the problems is that we come to expect life to work out that way as well, and become cynical and over-detached when we find out it doesn't. How do you live your life when you conclude the only thing good intentions will ever get you is a well-paved road to Hell? In Miracleman and Watchmen, Alan Moore carried that cynicism to its logical extreme. Heroism is a lie. Those who truly believe in it are foolish or mad. All giving people power will do is give those people opportunities to muck up the world, by design or accident. Power does more than corrupt -- Power is Corruption. Even the greatest of heroes was not immune: in "Whatever Happened to Superman?", Moore portrayed every good deed Superman had ever done in his entire life being unraveled and made pointless. In the end his only choices were to break his most sacred taboo and then obliterate his powers permanently and become an ordinary mortal to live out his life. He finally concluded that "Superman was overrated". Now I am the last person who would want to see a Superman movie that dark, nor am I the sort of person who wants to be so cynical that even good becomes evil. But that doesn't indicate people should be thinking in four colors either. Superpowers drive stories -- the question is what sort of story you want to tell. Except that in that instance, he didn't really break it. He was trying to banish Mxy to the Phantom Zone and it was Mxy's own attempt to escape back to the 5th Dimension that resulted in his death. Superman still blamed himself but strictly speaking, he didn't kill Mxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 What if Man of Steel was in color? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du-eYiD9OfM ...so, I knew MoS was dark, but jeez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 Do you really think "Heroism is a lie" is a logical extreme? It was to Moore, and was the central idea of Miracleman. Watchmen had several riffs on that theme, such as the entire career of The Comedian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 What if Man of Steel was in color? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du-eYiD9OfM ...so, I knew MoS was dark, but jeez. Wow. Now I really wish they'd gone with the more colorful palette. Nice find, Old Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 I feel about Alan Moore rather like I feel about Christopher Nolan. Both are very good at conveying the dark, twisted drives in the human psyche. Neither has a really good grasp of the inspirational power of hope and idealism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 Wow. Now I really wish they'd gone with the more colorful palette. Nice find, Old Man I know. I've been kind of blowing off the color desaturation, but... wow, it makes a huge, huge difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 If they ever released a 'Color Edition' I would buy it. I doubt they would, but damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 That is probably the reason Superman is beloved in American popular culture. He is the man who has devoted his life to showing that there are times when Lord Acton was wrong. At least in the classical view of the character, he probably could conquer the planet any time he wanted to. And do a better job of running it than most of the people doing it now. But he doesn't, even though he's had people on their knees begging him to lead them to glory, because he genuinely believes that human beings should be free to make their own decisions. One of the late pre-Crisis stories featured Superman waking from one of a series of nightmares about nuclear war (he dreamed he was the only person who survived a nuclear attack on Metropolis) and exploring in his mind the ways he could use his powers to take away man's deadly toys before deciding that trying to control that meant he couldn't do all the little acts of kindness and individual rescues that meant so much to him. Superman enjoys doing things like saving the window washer whose scaffolding is about to collapse. And he also enjoys helping the world get better through journalism and writing -- Clark Kent may be "mild-mannered", but he's not going to back down in the face of injustice. Batman doesn't hate injustice so much as he hates crime. He isn't nearly as offended by homelessness and poverty as he is by thieves and thugs. Bruce Wayne is a philanthropist who does a lot of public charity work -- but then so is Lex Luthor. His heart may be in it a little more than Lex's is, but for him it's part of the disguise. That';s the fundamental difference between then that is completely lost on Snyder. Superman loves Justice, and Batman craves Revenge. Is it not for nothing that the classic Animated Series for Batman takes place mostly as night, while Superman flies under the bright light of day. I remember the (imo bad) 70s "what if" superman comic about what if he came to earth Today... He did end up taking away all the nukes, iirc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oruncrest Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 I remember the (imo bad) 70s "what if" superman comic about what if he came to earth Today... He did end up taking away all the nukes, iirc... After they had been launched and on their way to their respective targets un the US & USSR (it was WWIII, in 1990). He would later go on to call the people of Earth 'gullible fools'. Read a humorous recap of that story here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 I feel about Alan Moore rather like I feel about Christopher Nolan. Both are very good at conveying the dark, twisted drives in the human psyche. Neither has a really good grasp of the inspirational power of hope and idealism. I thought Moore did a good job of that when he was writing Supreme. It was basically a love letter to Silver Age Superman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 It was to Moore, and was the central idea of Miracleman. Watchmen had several riffs on that theme, such as the entire career of The Comedian. I have decided this says more about Moore than it does about Heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 At least Moore seems to have realised that he went off the deep end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 At least Moore seems to have realised that he went off the deep end. When exactly did he realize this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 At least Moore seems to have realised that he went off the deep end. I don't think he did "go off the deep end." Yeah he told some dark stories in his career but he's also done lighter fare, like Tom Strong and his work on Supreme. Don't lump him in with a nut case like Frank Miller just because you don't like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Tom Strong is indeed lighter and very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 I don't think he did "go off the deep end." Yeah he told some dark stories in his career but he's also done lighter fare, like Tom Strong and his work on Supreme. Don't lump him in with a nut case like Frank Miller just because you don't like him. I didn't say I don't like him. For that matter I like Miller's early stuff too. My point was that Moore's lighter work seems to be something of a reaction against his earlier, darker work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Or maybe he got tired of being pegged a dark and broody bastard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Or maybe he got tired of being pegged a dark and broody bastard. "I can be a light and carefree bastard too!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 precisely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Lighter work? One comic weighs pretty much the same as another of equal size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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