Rules that make no sense, make the most sense

[Greywind]

I'm not your son. You aren't Steve Rogers.

 

It has to follow the game mechanics and the rules. That is the point.

[Ndreare]

It does follow the rules, you are mistaking special effect for rules.

[Greywind]

I'd suggest you read the section of the 6th book I quoted earlier. It does not follow the rules.

[Ndreare]

I did, and I disagree with you.

WHAT’S PERCEIVED

As a general guideline, characters define what

their Powers look and sound like. “Perceivable”

can mean many things, from the perceptibility of

the actual power itself (for example, a blue energy

beam that projects from the character’s hands

and hits the target) to just the source of the Power

being perceivable (for example, few characters can

perceive a bullet in flight, but they can all see the

gun, hear the shot, smell the gunpowder, and see

the bullet hole in the target). However, unless the

GM rules otherwise, a character who can perceive

a Power can determine the following about it:

 

Blah, blah, blah....

 

The GM has the final say on how perceivable a

Power is, and what characters can perceive about

it, based on common sense, dramatic sense, game

balance, and other factors.

[massey]

I'm not your son. You aren't Steve Rogers.

 

 

 

You think your dad is Captain America?  Nope.  You see, Obi Wan never told you the truth about your father.

 

And you really need to let go of whatever issue you have with me.  I see it in every thread you post in with me.

[zslane]

That last paragraph is a helpful annotation intended, I think, to provide guidance to GMs of non-supers genres where flashy power fx which are unambiguously preceivable by multiple senses is not the norm. Some other means of conveying the original intent of the rules becomes necessary because of a shift in genre conventions. I suppose Star Wars, being space opera and not strictly speaking superheroes, would not carry the implicit assumption that END-costing powers must have easily visible power fx (I'm sorry but the "its obvious that it is Telekinesis because all characters in the game universe knows what Force TK is" doesn't quite cut it). I would argue that the Star Wars Force TK example is not really a case of re-interpretation of the standard visible power fx rules (and, by extension IPE), but rather a genre-specific relaxation of it as a compulsory element on all END-costing powers.

[Hyper-Man]

I think it's hilarious that all the arguments for Jedi TK not requiring IPE can be applied to Invisible Girl/Woman using her "Invisible Force Field" Powers.

 

Think about that for a moment.

[bigbywolfe]

The source of Force TK should only be obvious to the Force Sensitive,

[bigbywolfe]

You think your dad is Captain America? Nope. You see, Obi Wan never told you the truth about your father.

 

And you really need to let go of whatever issue you have with me. I see it in every thread you post in with me.

I don't know what's been going on in other threads, but calling someone you are arguing with "son" is pretty dang condescending.

[massey]

I think it's hilarious that all the arguments for Jedi TK not requiring IPE can be applied to Invisible Girl/Woman using her "Invisible Force Field" Powers.

 

Think about that for a moment.

 

Why do you think that?

[zslane]

What evidence do we have that Sue Storm's "invisible force field" powers don't have IPE?

[massey]

What evidence do we have that Sue Storm's "invisible force field" powers don't have IPE?

 

 

I'm not the biggest Fantastic Four fan, but from what I remember, the Invisible Woman is the poster child for IPE.  I thought part of her shtick was that she would put up a force field, and bad guys would run into it without knowing that it was there.  Or a bad guy would unload with some lethal attack, and then it would bounce harmlessly off the force field.

 

Basically, Sue Storm seemed to routinely get the in-game benefits that a power with IPE would grant you.

 

Bad guy player:  "I half-move 12 inches over there above the building, and then blast the Human Torch while he's on the ground."

GM:  "Actually, you move 2 inches and smack into a force field that you didn't see.  You can try to use your casual strength to break through, because you didn't know it was there."

Bad guy player:  "My casual strength is 30." Rolls 6 dice.  "6 Body?"

GM:  "Not enough.  It has 12 Def.  You've used your movement.  What do you do with the rest of your phase?"

Bad guy player:  "Crap!  Can I see the Torch from where I am now?"

GM:  "No.  He's behind that building.  You don't have the angle to see him."

Bad guy player:  "Well I guess I'm just going to try to blast my way out."  Rolls dice...

 

That sort of thing seemed to happen all the time.  She's one of those pain-in-the-butt characters who are aggravating to fight against.  I didn't ever see that kind of in-game benefit enjoyed by the Jedi in Star Wars (with the exception of Luke lifting 3PO to scare the Ewoks).

[Hyper-Man]

Why do you think that?

 

They say a picture is worth....

 

 

Except for the uniform, that could be a Jedi doing a Force Shove.

[zslane]

Okay, sure, she had the in-game benefits of IPE. But my question is what makes you think the character wouldn't be built with IPE on her powers?

[massey]

Okay, sure, she had the in-game benefits of IPE. But my question is what makes you think the character wouldn't be built with IPE on her powers?

 

I think we might be miscommunicating.  I always thought she would have it.

 

Although...

 

 

 

They say a picture is worth....

 

 

 

Except for the uniform, that could be a Jedi doing a Force Shove.

 

 

Well, there are all sorts of problems in getting people to agree when they write up a fictional character.  You might as well ask what Dex is Spider-Man.  Or (to reference a very old thread) how do we build Captain America's shield?  This discussion is not really any different.

 

Okay, so because comic books are a visual medium, often even "invisible" things are drawn.  Swirling lines can indicate a gust of wind, a thin or dashed black (or blue, in this case) outline can indicate an invisible barrier, etc.  The reader gets to see something on the page so they know what is going on.  We understand the need for this visual effect and we know that the characters within the story may not be able to see what we can see.  This is actually different from film, where motion, music, and other camera effects can let us know something is happening without specifically showing it.  There is a different expectation within the two mediums.

 

In the above picture, the Invisible Woman is in sort of an action pose, and there are blue lines coming from her to show she is using her power.  So this is actually a great example of building a character to get the in-game effect you want.  You have to ask yourself -- do the enemies know she is using a power?  can they perceive it in some way?  do they receive combat penalties such as reduced DCV when they are attacked with the power?  However you answer those questions will determine whether the character should have IPE.

 

As I remember the character, she should have that advantage.  It's certainly the way I've always thought of the character.  Perhaps your idea of the character is different.  If it's always obvious that she's using a force field, or shooting someone with a force blast (perhaps it looks like a big sheet of glass, or maybe light glints off of it, or you can see dust get trapped against it), then maybe she doesn't need IPE on the power.  I always thought she had it because the handful of FF comics that I read seemed to show that bad guys were routinely surprised when they ran into one of her force fields.  But your mileage may vary.  If you want Sue Storm to sit there and act as a traditional blaster on the field, then you might not need that power.

 

I just never saw evidence that the Star Wars characters would be required to buy IPE to explain the benefits they got in the first three movies.

[zslane]

I agree. Though the Star Wars case perhaps merits more discussion, as we've been having. Like I said, I feel that technically speaking, Force TK would require either visible fx that are perceptible to normal senses (not just "obvious" because of context), or the IPE advantage. However, since Star Wars isn't superheroes, one might simply suspend the aforementioned requirement, in which case a Star Wars GM simply declares that certain powers (ala Force TK) can be invisible and nobody has to buy IPE. It isn't RAW, but its certainly as reasonable as any other House Rule.

[massey]

As far as Star Wars goes, I think it still depends on what you want to do with it.  I don't like the idea that you automatically have to pay extra just to have a cool special effect.

 

If Power Armor Guy wants boot jets that let him fly around, he might buy 20" of Flight x8 noncom through his focus.  If that's all he wants to do, that should be enough.  Now, if later in the game, he decides he wants to kick his feet into somebody and then use his rocket boots to burn the guy, he's going to have to pay points for that.  But I don't think the GM should say at the beginning of the game "well, you have to buy that Flight in a Multipower, and then put in another slot with a limited range RKA, just in case you later decide to do this".  If the guy never wants to use his rocket boots to burn someone, he shouldn't be required to buy it, just because he could theoretically do it someday.

 

Now in the prequels, they seem to use their TK for a lot of sneaky things.  If you're doing that, I'd probably require IPE, or at least a Slight of Hand skill roll or something.  But the prequels suck.  If you were creating a Star Wars setting for your game, where Force powers were common and all worked the same, it may make sense to have people use the same build.  And in that case, IPE might be necessary.  But if I'm playing a Jedi in a regular game, and I like running around and super-jumping and using my lightsaber and sticking my hand out towards objects when I want to move them... I probably don't need it.  But then if I try to be sneaky with it, it's not gonna work because I didn't actually buy it that way.

 

That's just my view on it anyway.

[zslane]

I tend to agree with everything you just said.

 

I would point out, however, that being invisible, whether you are a character or a power, is not merely a special effect. It is a power or a power advantage, and if you want it, you must pay for it according to the RAW.

 

But you are right, sometimes you don't know all the stunty ways you are going to use a power until the situation for it arises. I tend to err on the side of basing costs on what you see, hear, and feel in-game. If a power isn't visible or audible (or whatever), then it requires IPE regardless of whether or not you ever do "sneaky" things with it. But then, in the case of IPE, I feel the rules are pretty clear since they essentially deal with Senses, which have been formalized in the mechanics and are not usually ambiguous to the point of provoking debate.

[Hyper-Man]

There's no need to refer to the prequels for an example of IPE TK by a Jedi.  Just watch the scene of Ben inside the Death Star just before he disables the Tractor Beam. He uses TK to make a noise on the other side of the room to distract the Imperials nearby.  At a minimum that requires IPE for the source of the power.  Some might say that was Ben using a 'Jedi Mind Trick' (Mental Illusion/Mind Control) but why would we the audience hear the noise if that was the case?

[Grailknight]

So we, the audience, would know what he did?

 

I agree it was probably IPE but it could have been a Mind Trick or just a Super Skill.

[massey]

Ben used the Images power. Since the entire purpose of Images is to cause an illusion, I'd say IPE isn't needed (and in fact would make the power useless).

 

Of course, he also makes a hand motion and the two storm troopers are both looking away when it happens. So even if there was a visual effect it would not have been seen.

 

I'm still not exactly sure what he was supposed to be doing. Did he pick something up and drop it to make that sound? I dunno.

 

If you want an original trilogy example, it's Luke lifting 3PO to scare Ewoks.

[Greywind]

Easier to make a janitor droid trip over his mop bucket.

[massey]

I tend to agree with everything you just said.

 

I would point out, however, that being invisible, whether you are a character or a power, is not merely a special effect. It is a power or a power advantage, and if you want it, you must pay for it according to the RAW.

 

But you are right, sometimes you don't know all the stunty ways you are going to use a power until the situation for it arises. I tend to err on the side of basing costs on what you see, hear, and feel in-game. If a power isn't visible or audible (or whatever), then it requires IPE regardless of whether or not you ever do "sneaky" things with it. But then, in the case of IPE, I feel the rules are pretty clear since they essentially deal with Senses, which have been formalized in the mechanics and are not usually ambiguous to the point of provoking debate.

 

Usually things are not ambiguous.  But special effects, especially nontraditional or weird ones, can force you to look a little closer.

 

For the sake of argument, can I define my Invisibility power as being so uninteresting that people just look right past me?  I can walk up and talk to them and I'm so boring that they immediately forget I said anything?  I can technically be detected by senses of sight and sound.  If someone takes a picture, I'm right there in the photo.  Of course, no one will notice because I'm just that uninteresting.  By all accounts, I'm not "invisible" in the traditional sense.  But by game mechanics, I am.

[zslane]

That almost feels more like Mental Illusions, where you are essentially convincing the brains of others that you aren't there. But since cameras can "see" you, and face recognition software can recognize you, and you still cast shadows and block light, and so on, you aren't using Invisibility as written. You'd have to load on so many limitations as to render it a new power I might call Not Really Invisible...

[massey]

That almost feels more like Mental Illusions, where you are essentially convincing the brains of others that you aren't there. But since cameras can "see" you, and face recognition software can recognize you, and you still cast shadows and block light, and so on, you aren't using Invisibility as written. You'd have to load on so many limitations as to render it a new power I might call Not Really Invisible...

 

Maybe.  But do you say that merely because of the special effect?

 

Where does it say in the power that invisible people don't cast shadows?  Or block light?  Those aren't game effects.  Sure you would be in a picture, but if people ignore you even then?