Rules that make no sense, make the most sense

[zslane]

Your interpretation makes it impossible to attack from stealth without everyone present automatically seeing the attacker.

Note quite. The visible power fx make the general location of the hidden attacker discernable, but does not necessarily make the attacker targettable. It is the price one pays for using a power lacking IPE.

 

There is something that is clear to anyone watching the security panel. The buttons are pressing on their own and the door opens.

And for anyone not specifically watching the security panel? Anyone merely glancing towards the space between Luke and the panel should be able to sense the TK with three Senses. As I've mentioned before, the user and the target can't be the "visual components" that satisfy this requirement because they, being independent entities from the power in use (characters and objects are not powers), could be hidden from any or all Senses, and yet the power's use must still be perceptible to three Senses.

[Grailknight]

So Stealth and Perception don't matter? 

 

I'm truly trying to understand your viewpoint.  Which of these require IPE  if you're the target of a hidden attacker?

 

A sniper rifle?.

 

A  dead fall trap?

 

A ninja with a blowgun?

 

An eagle swooping on a rabbit?

 

To me, those are examples of Perception vs Stealth/Concealment for the initial attack. I'd like to read your take.

[bigbywolfe]

Unless the ninja has the loudest blowgun in the world that probably has at least partial IPE, I would guess "+¼ Makes an Obvious Power Inobvious to one Sense Group". 

[Greywind]

Maybe he made his blowgun out of a vuvuzela.

[zslane]

STR/melee attacks (like a swooping eagle) aren't generally subject to the visual fx requirement. A blowgun without IPE would have darts that are somewhat big, colorful, slow, and make a lot of noise whistling through the air. In cases like that, the ability to perceive the projectile, independent of the visibility of the shooter or target, is not too difficult to imagine/contrive; if not, then be prepared to put IPE on it. A super sniper rifle with a cinematic silencer would require IPE.

 

But like I said, the whole IPE issue tends to only matter to Champions campaigns--heroic level games often suspend the visual fx requirement(s) on the grounds of "realism" (or some other strong genre convention).

[Hugh Neilson]

To you (and your house rules) perhaps, but not to the RAW. In order for the silly gestures to be visible (i.e., a "visible component"), the character has to be in plain sight as well. If he or she isn't, then neither are his silly hand gestures or furrowed brow. How else, then, is the power supposed to be visible? The RAW requires that the power still be visible to three Senses/Groups, two of them common, even when the user of the power is not.

The 6e rules are quite clear that a power is, by default, visible to TWO sense groups, not three. Many are visible to other sense groups by virtue of SFX, but this is not a requirement. This is a specific change from older editions, where three sense groups were the default, but there were no specifics on WHICH three were the default. Now, sight is required absent GM permission, and hearing is the default second sense group.

 

Another example, Luke is hiding behind a cargo container and using his Force TK to tap on the security panel of a ship across the loading bay in order to unlock it. According to the RAW, there must be something that makes it clear to anyone looking at the intervening space between them that TK of some kind is being used, the origin of which is tucked behind a cargo container and the other end of which is somewhere on the ship (even though the security panel may not be within plain view). In fact, nobody may realize which end of the TK is the source and which end is the target given that neither are easily discernable. But the fact that TK is "happening" must still be evident beause its power fx are visible to three Senses.

The rules indicate that, by default, the path of the power is perceivable. They also state that a gunshot is visible. Can you see the path on which the bullet is travelling? This seems like an inconsistency in the rules, before we consider that TK has an element of Indirect, an advantage which "allows a character to alter the Source and/or Path of an attack".

 

As many others have noted, it is possible to use Stealth while using a Power, so Visible powers in no way require the character be made inherently obvious by power use if they are otherwise concealed.

 

I have no problem with that. It just means that he still gets to use his claws when restrained. No biggie. But if someone believes Wolverine can't use his claws when restrained, then he believes in a version of Wolverine in which the claws are a restrainable focus.

Especially for such a stickler on visibility, you're very lenient on point of origin. A power is not restrainable or a focus because its point of origin can be used against the character. No, read the "Point of Origin" rules on page 126 of Hero 6e Vol 1. Wolverine can still use his claws, but he needs to attack someone or something in close proximity behind him if his arms are tied behind his back. His claws, unlike Telekinesis, are not Indirect, so they can't strike anything his hands can't strike.

 

STR/melee attacks (like a swooping eagle) aren't generally subject to the visual fx requirement. A blowgun without IPE would have darts that are somewhat big, colorful, slow, and make a lot of noise whistling through the air. In cases like that, the ability to perceive the projectile, independent of the visibility of the shooter or target, is not too difficult to imagine/contrive; if not, then be prepared to put IPE on it. A super sniper rifle with a cinematic silencer would require IPE.

Movement Powers are Inobvious. However, when they’re in use it becomes Obvious that the character is moving somehow, and thus usually Obvious what sort of Movement Power he’s using. Even when a Movement Power’s not in use there may be Obvious manifestations of the means of movement (for example, if a character has wings, it’s Obvious that he can fly).

So, by your requirements for obvious, visible powers, there is no way that eagle can swoop in and catch the rabbit off guard unless he has IPE on his flight. His path of movement is Obvious, just like the path taken by an attack power to reach its target.

 

The Power rules are applicable to Heroic games, not just Superheroic games. But in any game "The GM has the final say on how perceivable a Power is, and what characters can perceive about

it, based on common sense, dramatic sense, game balance, and other factors." That it is clear and obvious to a viewer who is using that Force TK seems, based on these factors, to support concluding that the power is Visible. The fact that Greedo did not see Han's Blaster under the table does not require he pay for IPE either, by the way.

[massey]

 

Here we see an example of someone without IPE on their sniper rifle.

 

Steve Martin has the disadvantage "Oblivious", which gives him a massive penalty to his perception.

The gunman has failed his stealth roll.

Jackie Mason immediately sees the gunman without having to make a perception roll at all.

Once it is pointed out that there is a man with a gun, Steve Martin immediately sees him.

 

Despite the fact that, in the real world, a man with a gun on a distant hill, wearing hunter's gear, near some trees would be very hard to see, Jackie Mason sees him easily.  This is because it's a movie of course.  If you want to remain hidden with your sniper rifle, you either need IPE or enough ranged levels so that you are very far away, giving a distance penalty to their PER rolls.

[bigbywolfe]

Or Jackie Mason just made a really good PER roll to see the hidden character.

Using the gun didn't magically make the hidden character visible, but it did make it obvious which general direction the attack power was coming from.

[massey]

I think the most unrealistic thing in that scene is that someone was shooting a gun and it wasn't at Jackie Mason.