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Adding Damage to Nerve Strike


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Yes I know: RAW say you can't add STR damage to Nerve Strike. That's why I'm posting here instead of Ask Steve. :snicker:

 

I've always found Nerve Strike to be the most useless Martial Maneuver. Ignoring the opponent's defenses is nice, obviously; but with an average of 7 STUN, you're not even going to STUN Joe Normal 90% of the time. A 15 STR character with a +2d6 Martial Strike does average damage of 18, so unless your opponent has 11 PD or more, the Nerve Strike is never going to be a better choice. And at superheroic levels, where higher Defenses might make Nerve Strike more desirable, 7 STUN is still such a low amount as to be nearly trivial.

 

Is that just me? And if not, what have you done to de-nerf Nerve Strike?

 

In the past, I've done a workaround by building a Brick Trick using AVAD-NND as a Naked Modifier on STR (or part of it); that works reasonably well if you already have a Brick Tricks Framework. But what I really want is a Martial maneuver that's worth the points - however many points that works out to be. Thoughts?

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Actually there are kinds of NND martial arts attacks that it would make sense to add damage to, so I would allow it as if they are killing damage classes with good reason.  Because you're right.  Nerve Strike and its variants are fine in a heroic game but pretty worthless in superhero settings.  So instead of using martial arts, you're better off buying some levels and separate powers for many martial arts maneuvers at high level.

 

This actually highlights something I brought up when the 6th edition build was being discussed: a power framework that builds martial arts maneuvers would be a useful tool.  Instead of having martial arts a unique, separate system have it be one common example of a framework.  Imagine being able to build your martial arts powers with this framework how you want.  Imagine having spells built like martial arts, with specific structures.  This would let you more easily add modifiers to maneuvers, create unusual ones specific to your game, and so on.

 

How this would be done would take some thought and work to figure out, but it would by its very nature necessarily include restrictions and limits as martial arts does.  "You can do this, but not this in my spell system" like how you can only buy so many dice of damage and cannot combine certain elements in martial arts.  This would add a whole new level of flexibility and value to the toolkit, I think.

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Martial Damage Classes

Sure, but those increase damage for all martial attacks. In this case I don't need to push Mr Brick's punch up to 14d6 instead of 12d6; I just want his Nerve Strike to do more than 2d6. I guess you could buy Martial Damage Classes with a Limitation: Only For Nerve Strike. But that has potential for major abuse I think. (How much of is Limitation: Only With Offensive Strike worth?)

 

I would build a brick trick version starting from a HA with advantages which has more forgiving rules than a Naked Advantage on STR.

OK, I hadn't thought of that. Hmmm. I think in most cases the Naked Advantage is still going to be cheaper tho. Each die of HA with NND is going to cost 3 RP. (Assuming +1/2 for NND* and -1 for Only With Nerve Strike.) Buying a Naked +1/2 Advantage for the character's existing STR is only 2.5 per 5 STR. So unless you want the Nerve Strike to do more dice than the character's normal STR damage, the Naked Advantage is always going to be slightly cheaper.

 

* That's using 6ed AVAD rules; yes, I realize NND is a +1 in 5ed. But the result is the same either way.

 

Actually there are kinds of NND martial arts attacks that it would make sense to add damage to, so I would allow it as if they are killing damage classes with good reason.  Because you're right.

Would you charge extra for that, or just house-rule that this is now Nerve Strike works in your world?

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Hmm...per the HSMA rules for building custom martial maneuvers:

  • NND costs +1 point per 1/2d6 for the first 1d6, then +2 per 1/2d6 up to the max of 2d6. So 2d6 NND costs 6 points.
  • NND also has to take the Uses No STR element, which is -2, so that drops the cost back to 4 pts.
  • (-1 OCV and +1 DCV are a wash cost-wise)

So dropping off the Uses No STR element pushes the cost up to 6 pts; knock off the +1 DCV to bring the cost down to 5?

 

Or: What about changing Uses No STR to Uses Half STR, which is a -1 element? For anyone at 20 STR or less, the RAW 4pt maneuver is better, but at 30 STR you get a 3d6 NND. 60 STR Brick gets a 6d6NND, which is pretty powerful granted, but by superhero standards it's not completely unbalanced.

 

Or do we add STR as if it were Killing Damage, as Christopher suggested?

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Would you charge extra for that, or just house-rule that this is now Nerve Strike works in your world?

 

 

Just a house rule, but I don't let people add strength, just use increased martial arts damage classes.  In other words, if you are really skilled you can deal a more powerful blow than someone without it, but raw strength doesn't help with a finesse attack.

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Sure, but those increase damage for all martial attacks. In this case I don't need to push Mr Brick's punch up to 14d6 instead of 12d6; I just want his Nerve Strike to do more than 2d6. I guess you could buy Martial Damage Classes with a Limitation: Only For Nerve Strike. But that has potential for major abuse I think. (How much of is Limitation: Only With Offensive Strike worth?)

 

OK, I hadn't thought of that. Hmmm. I think in most cases the Naked Advantage is still going to be cheaper tho. Each die of HA with NND is going to cost 3 RP. (Assuming +1/2 for NND* and -1 for Only With Nerve Strike.) Buying a Naked +1/2 Advantage for the character's existing STR is only 2.5 per 5 STR. So unless you want the Nerve Strike to do more dice than the character's normal STR damage, the Naked Advantage is always going to be slightly cheaper.

 

* That's using 6ed AVAD rules; yes, I realize NND is a +1 in 5ed. But the result is the same either way.

 

Would you charge extra for that, or just house-rule that this is now Nerve Strike works in your world?

 

What's the character's base STR and how many dice of "Nerve Strike" Damage do you want them to achieve with STR added?

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Just a house rule, but I don't let people add strength, just use increased martial arts damage classes.  In other words, if you are really skilled you can deal a more powerful blow than someone without it, but raw strength doesn't help with a finesse attack.

Ah, I see: adding damage, but not necessarily STR damage. I agree raw strength should be less of an issue here than skill. But again, I don't necessarily need to push up the damage for all the character's maneuvers; I just want this one to be scaled somehow so it actually becomes useful.

 

Just put your STR and NND in a Multipower.

Sure, if you want to do a Brick Tricks sort of Multipower; that's usually how I've done it in the past. But the character I'm looking at now is a straight-up martial artist. Adding that kind of Multipower for him doesn't make sense, and adding one just to get an NND attack is cost-prohibitive, so I'm looking for a way to do it with martial arts that isn't completely worthless.

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What's the character's base STR and how many dice of "Nerve Strike" Damage do you want them to achieve with STR added?

In this particular case, 30 STR. And I'm thinking 4d6 or 5d6 NND is probably fine; I don't need this to be a one-shot-one-drop effect.

 

But I'm also thinking generally, as it's something that has bugged me with Nerve Strike for years and multiple characters.

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Actually there are kinds of NND martial arts attacks that it would make sense to add damage to, so I would allow it as if they are killing damage classes with good reason.  Because you're right.  Nerve Strike and its variants are fine in a heroic game but pretty worthless in superhero settings.

I don't see how it's anything but worthless in heroic settings either, as written.

 

So instead of using martial arts, you're better off buying some levels and separate powers for many martial arts maneuvers at high level.

 

This actually highlights something I brought up when the 6th edition build was being discussed: a power framework that builds martial arts maneuvers would be a useful tool.  Instead of having martial arts a unique, separate system have it be one common example of a framework.  Imagine being able to build your martial arts powers with this framework how you want.  Imagine having spells built like martial arts, with specific structures.  This would let you more easily add modifiers to maneuvers, create unusual ones specific to your game, and so on.

 

How this would be done would take some thought and work to figure out, but it would by its very nature necessarily include restrictions and limits as martial arts does.  "You can do this, but not this in my spell system" like how you can only buy so many dice of damage and cannot combine certain elements in martial arts.  This would add a whole new level of flexibility and value to the toolkit, I think.

That's an intriguing idea.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Weapon Element: Palindromedary

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Hmm...per the HSMA rules for building custom martial maneuvers:

  • NND costs +1 point per 1/2d6 for the first 1d6, then +2 per 1/2d6 up to the max of 2d6. So 2d6 NND costs 6 points.
  • NND also has to take the Uses No STR element, which is -2, so that drops the cost back to 4 pts.
  • (-1 OCV and +1 DCV are a wash cost-wise)
So dropping off the Uses No STR element pushes the cost up to 6 pts; knock off the +1 DCV to bring the cost down to 5?

 

Or: What about changing Uses No STR to Uses Half STR, which is a -1 element? For anyone at 20 STR or less, the RAW 4pt maneuver is better, but at 30 STR you get a 3d6 NND. 60 STR Brick gets a 6d6NND, which is pretty powerful granted, but by superhero standards it's not completely unbalanced.

 

Or do we add STR as if it were Killing Damage, as Christopher suggested?

 

Given the way Martial Arts if anything is such a bargain generally in terms of "bang for the buck" I don't know why Nerve Strike in particular is so nerfed.

 

I would just buy a Hand Attack with No Normal Defense, put a Limitation on it "Only vs Humans, or something with a similar nervous system" (because frankly I've never thought you should be able to Nerve Strike something if you may have no clue where its nerves runs, if it even has nerves!) and pay to make that attack one of the Weapon Elements. Now your Offensive Strike can do No Normal Defense - but pro-rate the damage appropriately, unless you're just hopelessly munchkin.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No Normal Defesne, Defense is having a palindromedary

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Is the 30 STR necessary to our concept?

 

You can take lower STR and add Martial DC's or keep 30 STR  and just use the basic moves that don't add DC's.

 

IME, if your NND does the same DC's as your basic attack it will quickly become your go-to power, YMMV. Keeping it less will probably be more in concept and prevent overuse.

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The entire point of Martial Arts in 6E is getting a certain effect for less cost.

It is cheaper to add Martial Arts then buy actuall DC and CV. In turn it only applies to some maneuvers.

What little balance these rules have would propably not work if you could add any STR to the MA NND.

It's applicability for Superheroic games always appeared doubtfull for me. Even Martial Artists make for me more "sense" just with the proper CV and "STR, 0 End, Only What martial Arts can do"

 

As for the multipower route, consider buying 40 STR normally and then a 20 Point Multipower.

With stuff like +20 STR, +2D6 HTH-Attack NDD (+1), HKA (AP advantage). You can get a lot of the cake and eat it too.

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In this particular case, 30 STR. And I'm thinking 4d6 or 5d6 NND is probably fine; I don't need this to be a one-shot-one-drop effect.

 

But I'm also thinking generally, as it's something that has bugged me with Nerve Strike for years and multiple characters.

 

Here's a basic version. The real cost could easily be reduced further by using the suggestions made by Lucius.

 

20 Super Nerve Strike: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Resistant PD; All Or Nothing; Nerve Strike; +1) (25 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

[Notes: STR adds damage at 1/2 the normal rate due to prorating of Advantages.  30 STR adds +3d6 damage for a Total 5d6 "NND Nerve Strike".] - END=0

 

*As built, DC bonus damage from normal damage Martial Strikes could also be combined with this at the reduced (prorated) rate (+2 DC = +1d6).

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Is the 30 STR necessary to our concept?

Necessary to the character concept, but not necessarily to the nerve strike concept. I agree skill should be more of a factor than STR.

 

IME, if your NND does the same DC's as your basic attack it will quickly become your go-to power, YMMV. Keeping it less will probably be more in concept and prevent overuse.

Absolutely. I'd be happy if the AP were in the same ballpark.

 

20 Super Nerve Strike: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Resistant PD; All Or Nothing; Nerve Strike; +1) (25 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)

[Notes: STR adds damage at 1/2 the normal rate do prorating of Advantages.  30 STR adds +3d6 damage for a Total 5d6 "NND Nerve Strike".] - END=0

If I'm not mistaken, with this build only the 2d6 would be NND; If you want the +3d6 Damage from STR to be NND, you would have to buy a Naked Modifier that applies to it, right?

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If I'm not mistaken, with this build only the 2d6 would be NND; If you want the +3d6 Damage from STR to be NND, you would have to buy a Naked Modifier that applies to it, right?

 

Nope.  According to 6e2 pages 100-102 - STR adds to an Advantaged HA at a pro-rated amount determined by the value of the Advantages on the HA.  So in my example, every 10 points of STR adds +1d6 to the base HA. 

 

It's really no different than how you determine how extra STR increases a weapon's damage when it has an Advantage like AP or Penetrating.

 

In 5e/5er there wasn't even any pro-rating.  A character's STR could double the base HA at the normal rate no matter what damage enhancing Advantages it had.

 

I still think +4 Martial Damage Classes is a better deal @16 points since they are 0 END by default and any STR used to enhance the HA approach costs END. Of course that means that the HA + STR version could be Pushed, which is not something that could be done with the Martial Nerve Strike since Pushing requires that the base ability being used has an END cost.

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If I'm not mistaken, with this build only the 2d6 would be NND; If you want the +3d6 Damage from STR to be NND, you would have to buy a Naked Modifier that applies to it, right?

Nope. You would still pay normal END for the STR.

But if you add DC of any kind (STR, CSL, Martial Arts, normal Maneuvers, Chicken) to an attack with "Advantages that affect the Damage calculation", they get those advatanges for free. DC (Damage Classes) is a somewhat abstract figure of measuring the "power of an attack regardless of advantages".

Adding 30 STR (6 DC) to a 2D6 Normal Damage, NND (+1) (4 DC) results in a 10 DC attack with all the advantages.

 

 

Also this example power should show why Martial Arts NND does not allow you to add STR:

It is a 2D6, 0 End(+1/2), NND(+1) that only costs 4 Real Points.

Martial Arts balance/pricing is so fragile, it has no chance to work out if you do not at least buy 10 points worth of MA maneuvers.

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Nerve Strike really is weak. I generally just go with the Pulled Punch modifier on some other strike. A 6d6 pulled punch averages 21 stun and only 3 body. (-1 OCV) That's not going to seriously injure anyone; most won't be hurt at all. And it's way less costly than the Nerve Strike; most people already have an attack they can use with the Pulled Punch modifier.

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A character with A Nerve Strike & 4 Martial Damage Classes will do 4d6 NND.  The idea is to have a way of doing some damage to a target with HIGH NORMAL defenses.

 

If we assume a 20 STR character that also has a Martial Strike, they could also use it do 10d6 Normal.  As soon as they face a target with better than 21PD the Nerve Strike is the better option. If the target has better than 28PD the Nerve Stike is still more effective than an Offensive Strike that does 12d6.

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You would still pay normal END for the STR.

But if you add DC of any kind (STR, CSL, Martial Arts, normal Maneuvers, Chicken) to an attack with "Advantages that affect the Damage calculation", they get those advatanges for free. DC (Damage Classes) is a somewhat abstract figure of measuring the "power of an attack regardless of advantages".

Adding 30 STR (6 DC) to a 2D6 Normal Damage, NND (+1) (4 DC) results in a 10 DC attack with all the advantages.

 

 

Also this example power should show why Martial Arts NND does not allow you to add STR:

It is a 2D6, 0 End(+1/2), NND(+1) that only costs 4 Real Points.

Martial Arts balance/pricing is so fragile, it has no chance to work out if you do not at least buy 10 points worth of MA maneuvers.

I'm not sure which rules set you are refering to, but your first paragraph is not correct for 6e. If you add DCs to attacks with advantages, you have to refer to the charts in 6E2 pp100-102, which are effectively the same as dividing the DCs added by the 1+advantage total.

 

I think we all agree that martial art pricing is quite cheap compared to other powers. Whether that is a good thing is certainly an open topic, but it appears to be deliberate. The NND attacks are, however, aberrant within that assumption, which is why we're discussing altering them.

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I don't mind buying damage classes for Nerve Strike, but what really nerfs Nerve Strike is:

 

 "The target takes full damage from the Nerve Strike unless he has rigid armor protecting his vulnerable spots or PD Resistant Protection."  (6E 2. p. 92)

 

In a superheroic campaign, who doesn't have PD resistant Protection? 

 

If you just want a 6d6 Nerve Strike, perhaps something like this:

 

6d6 Blast.  AVAD (All or Nothing, Very Common to Common Pd to Resistant PD).  No range.  No Knockback.  Cannot be used with any combat maneuver or martial maneuver other than "Strike"  [Active Cost 30;  Real Cost 13, End 3]

 

If Nerve Strike is meant to be used against Brick then an NND (Resistant PD) is, to my estimation, almost never going to be viable.  In all of the published example characters for superheroic campaigns, I can think of only 1 that didn't have Resistant PD.

 

Honestly, if you were GM would you allow a player character superhero to leave the house without some form of Resistant PD?  I'll admit there are a few edge cases:  Usually Desolid Dude, Massive Regeneration Ruffian, Piles and Piles of Body Boy, but otherwise its just to darned easy for them to get aced by a stray bullet.

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