Adding Damage to Nerve Strike

[WistfulD]

If you use the Martial arts expansion, there are multiple NNDs which can be used, including hard armor but not any and all resistant PD.

[Greywind]

"Rigid armor" is not resistant PD. It is armor that has some type of hard, rigid plates. Skin, irregardless of resistant PD, is not, by definition "rigid".

[Heroic Halfwit]

"Rigid armor" is not resistant PD. It is armor that has some type of hard, rigid plates. Skin, irregardless of resistant PD, is not, by definition "rigid".

 

Yes, I graduated 3rd grade and know the definition of "rigid" but the quote to which I referred was in the disjunctive with reference to the Resistant Physical Defense, ergo your statement seems to have conveniently disregarded the most salient portion to my previous statement.

 

So, 6E 2, says the NND is Either Rigid Armor or Resistant PD.  Personally, I think Resistant PD as the defense to NND is stupid.  I think Steve's great, but in this particular I think he went way left of field.  Unless there's an Errata somewhere that corrects the statement.

[Lucius]

I think Nerve Strike is in the game to reflect real-world martial techniques that, as I understand it, don't actually work too well against armor.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I doubt they would work against palindromedaries either, but they'd probably do a number on me.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think the more practical issue is to redefine the defense to, perhaps, "rigid armor protection or non-human physiology", rather than to render everyone with rPD immune.  But I prefer sfx based defenses to NND's over mechanical defenses.

[Christopher]

 "The target takes full damage from the Nerve Strike unless he has rigid armor protecting his vulnerable spots or PD Resistant Protection."  (6E 2. p. 92)

 

In a superheroic campaign, who doesn't have PD resistant Protection? 

HSMA 247 lists 7 different NDD defenses.

Inlcuding one that can be used to choke the target while in a Grab.

 

NND 1: Rigid Resistant PD on vital areas

NND 2: Rigid Resistant PD on the neck or not having to breathe

NND 3: Rigid Resistant PD on a specific Hit Location

NND 4: Solid ear coverings

NND 5: Resistance

NND 6: PD Resistant Protection or Power Defense

NND 7: Various defenses against joint-bending

(detailed explanations in the book).

 

Superheroic characters apparenlty are supposed to buy thier NND's as part of a Multipower. Even if they could be covered by existing Martial Arts. I once made these toe flexible and one inflexible Multipower Slots in 5E:

Martial Arts Training: +20 STR, 0 END (+1/2), 30 AP; No-Figureds(-1/2), Only what Martial Arts can affect(-1/4)

Martial Arts Training: +10 DEX; 30 AP; Only Affects CV (-1/2)*; 20 Real

Deadly Strikes: 2d6 HKA; 30 AP

Add to that a base Strenght of 30

 

*For some reason in 5E CV are NOT Figured Characteristics. So this is just a clearer version of No Figureds

[bigdamnhero]

I think Nerve Strike is in the game to reflect real-world martial techniques that, as I understand it, don't actually work too well against armor.

Which I'm fine with. But even without rigid armor or however it's defined: an average damage of 7 points is pretty-well useless in heroic games, and completely worthless in superheroic games.

[Grailknight]

I don't think the Martial NND's were designed to be the main attack of a Martial Artist but rather a nonlethal option against normals that could be used as an alternate attack versus tough opponents.

 

In any case switching out 10 STR for 2 Martial DC's will keep your other martial moves constant and raise the NND's up 1 die. Now you can stun a normal reliably and 3d6 NND is pretty good in heroic games.

[Christopher R Taylor]

As I understand it, you can't raise the NND damage (or flash attacks) of martial arts with damage classes.  Is that not the case?

[Hyper-Man]

As I understand it, you can't raise the NND damage (or flash attacks) of martial arts with damage classes.  Is that not the case?

 

From 6e2 page 92:

 

 

+1 DAMAGE CLASS

Characters may improve their Martial Maneuvers by buying Extra Damage Classes. Each Extra DC adds one Damage Class to any Maneuver (such as Martial Strike, Killing Strike, or Martial Throw), or +5 STR to any Maneuver that grants extra STR for limited purposes (such as Martial Grab).

 

An Extra Damage Class adds to all of a character’s Martial Maneuvers — he doesn’t have to purchase Extra DCs maneuver by maneuver. Characters cannot purchase half an Extra DC, nor apply Limitations to Extra DCs. A character can choose not to use his Extra DCs if he wants to do less damage than normal.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK yeah reading 6th edition Martial Arts it says specifically

 

Extra DCs add to damage from Martial Maneuvers. They add both to armed and unarmed Martial Maneuvers, and to any Maneuver that does damage regardless of the type of damage (Normal, Killing, or NND).

 

Wonder where I got that idea?  It appears that you can't add to flash with it though.  Still, 3d6 is pretty wimpy in a superhero campaign.

[Hyper-Man]

 

OK yeah reading 6th edition Martial Arts it says specifically

 

Extra DCs add to damage from Martial Maneuvers. They add both to armed and unarmed Martial Maneuvers, and to any Maneuver that does damage regardless of the type of damage (Normal, Killing, or NND).

 

Wonder where I got that idea?  It appears that you can't add to flash with it though.  Still, 3d6 is pretty wimpy in a superhero campaign.

 

 

Pretty sure it even applies to Flash.  You could ask Steve Long in the Rule forum for a clarification.

[Grailknight]

 

OK yeah reading 6th edition Martial Arts it says specifically

 

Extra DCs add to damage from Martial Maneuvers. They add both to armed and unarmed Martial Maneuvers, and to any Maneuver that does damage regardless of the type of damage (Normal, Killing, or NND).

 

Wonder where I got that idea?  It appears that you can't add to flash with it though.  Still, 3d6 is pretty wimpy in a superhero campaign.

 

 

For Street Level or Teen Champions, 3d6 NND is fine.

 

For higher levels, remember there are no rules limits to the number of DC's you can purchase.

[Christopher R Taylor]

True but your GM is probably going to cringe if you buy 6 DCs for your nerve strike and see your offensive strike push 14d6.

[Greywind]

Which is why some GM's use active damage caps.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think basically it comes down to nerve strike is really low to start with, and even at a heroic level probably should do more.  After all its going to deal 7 stun on average, and even against a normal person that's not much more than an annoyance.  Maybe starting at 3d6 would be better?

[Hyper-Man]

I think basically it comes down to nerve strike is really low to start with, and even at a heroic level probably should do more.  After all its going to deal 7 stun on average, and even against a normal person that's not much more than an annoyance.  Maybe starting at 3d6 would be better?

 

Something similar to this is suggested for supers in HSMA on page 248

[dmjalund]

can you buy Martial Damage dice that apply to only one maneuver?

[Lucius]

can you buy Martial Damage dice that apply to only one maneuver?

 

Not legally.

 

You can however buy Deadly Blow for a single maneuver, as far as I know.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says one can find black market Martial Arts Damage Classes with unlawful alterations, but that voids the warranty and they may not work as intended.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Not in 6th edition, you used to be able to, I think for 3 points?  Maybe that was just in Strike Force.  I think the best solution overall is to bump up nerve strike slightly, so at least it has a chance to stun ordinary people.  3d6 will average about 10-11 stun which will daze joe average.  That's what it ought to do, make them go ow! and double up, not say "meh, hurt a little."

[Grailknight]

I guess I'm having trouble with this because I see DC's as the distinction between a brawler and a martial artist.

 

To me, martial artists rarely rely on the +4 DC moves and fight with the +1 or +2 moves and DC's. Brawlers just use high STR and the moves.

 

Brawlers don't take down norms using special moves, they one punch them or they submission hold(choke/joint lock) them to unconsciousness over time.

 

The other NND strikes seem more skill based to me thematically, so the characters I associate them with are more masters of an art. They thus have DC's  or skill levels and no need to modify the moves mechanically to be viable.

 

I do agree that 2d6 NND is on the weak side though it still stuns a normal 28% of the time. ( Normals are all 8's in 6th.) 

[Ninja-Bear]

Yes I know: RAW say you can't add STR damage to Nerve Strike. That's why I'm posting here instead of Ask Steve.

 

I've always found Nerve Strike to be the most useless Martial Maneuver. Ignoring the opponent's defenses is nice, obviously; but with an average of 7 STUN, you're not even going to STUN Joe Normal 90% of the time. A 15 STR character with a +2d6 Martial Strike does average damage of 18, so unless your opponent has 11 PD or more, the Nerve Strike is never going to be a better choice. And at superheroic levels, where higher Defenses might make Nerve Strike more desirable, 7 STUN is still such a low amount as to be nearly trivial.

 

Is that just me? And if not, what have you done to de-nerf Nerve Strike?

 

In the past, I've done a workaround by building a Brick Trick using AVAD-NND as a Naked Modifier on STR (or part of it); that works reasonably well if you already have a Brick Tricks Framework. But what I really want is a Martial maneuver that's worth the points - however many points that works out to be. Thoughts?

Personally this has bothered me as well. Have you considered allowing to trade in 2 csl to equal +5 NND damage? And if you can get ahold of ninja hero 4th errata, Aaron Allston has rules which he was working on where you roll stun as killing attack. He called it S damage.

[WistfulD]

I think basically it comes down to nerve strike is really low to start with, and even at a heroic level probably should do more.  After all its going to deal 7 stun on average, and even against a normal person that's not much more than an annoyance.  Maybe starting at 3d6 would be better?

 

Maybe you could keep it at 2D6, but declare it to be just like HKA 2D6, AVAD (NND; +1). Thus it takes 2 DCs to improve by 1 effective DC, however, the actual stun taken is multiplied by a stun modifier roll (or location, if you use hit location rolls). Now that I write this, that actually might be too powerful. Hmmm...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Martial Damage Classes

and Combat Skill Levels.

[Hyper-Man]

and Combat Skill Levels.

 

Sure, but how many CSL's does it take to increase the damage from 2d6 to 3d6?  (2 or 4 CSL's?)  If the latter, then it is less cost effective than Martial Damage Classes.  (3 point CSL's are the minimum that can be used to increase damage - 12 points vs. 8 points for 2 Martial Damage Classes).

 

*I have asked this question in the Rules Forum.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91553-using-csls-to-increase-damage-of-martial-nerve-strike/?do=findComment&comment=2441563