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What is HERO combat like?


Altair

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Whee! Lots of good advice here. 

 

I like the different dials for adjustment. An example:

 

Heavy Hitting Hero vs. Big Bad Boogum. HHH has CVs of 10, and does about 50 STUN per attack. I want BBB to take about 3-4 dedicated attacks to bring down, depending on dice luck. I can go about this a couple ways.

  1. BBB has a comparatively high DCV, something like 13. HHH has roughly a 26% chance to land a hit - so statistically speaking, 1/4 attacks should land. If I want it to go down in 4, then it shouldn't be able to eat more than 45 STUN, something like PD10, STUN 40, though I'd probably do 30 or so, just to play it safe.
  2. BBB has a comparatively high PD, something like 25. I can set the CVs roughly equal, give B^3 something like 60 STUN, and figure that 3-4 hits with dice probability will take it down.
  3. BBB has a comparatively high STUN, something bogus like 100. I don't know if that's a thing that ever shows up, but let's roll with it. I could up the DCV, but really, if he's got 100 stun, let's just embrace his role as punching bag, and give him like, DCV 3. Maybe like, 10 points of PD? It'll still take ~3 turns to knock him down, though probably 2 if they realize how easy to hit he is - Hay-Makin' time! 

Fundamentally, we've got a villain who takes 3-4 hits to go down. But those three feel very different. Personally, I find that missing tends to leave players feeling unsatisfied, so I usually tend towards things that are easy to hit, but can take a lot of punishment. Maybe it's from playing JRPGs growing up, but that seems to be how the psychological reward structure falls in me at least.

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My advice on that would be -- don't count on the players rolling average. Sure enough if you bring in the high DCV character, the guy playing Mighty Man will step up and roll a '4' to hit, clobbering him immediately and knocking him into next week. That or he will suddenly be unable to roll lower than a '15' and your villain will stomp all of them into the dirt.

 

Combat maneuvers like haymakers and pushing can also make a guy hit a lot harder than you are prepared for. You think to yourself "well the hero has an OCV of 8, and a 14d6 energy blast, so I'll give the villain a DCV of 12 and he will be really hard to hit, but will only have 15 ED and 40 Stun, so when he gets hit he will fall down." Then your English teacher will scold you for an awful run-on sentence. But after that, when the heroic Captain Fallout shoots at the villain and misses, on the next phase he's going to haymaker, push, and then spread his attack by 6 dice for a +6 to hit. Suddenly he's hitting on a 13- and your villain is sucking pavement.

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If you want the heroes to hit more often, set the maximum OCV to be one higher than the maximum DCV.

 

I let Block and Dodge (and their martial arts versions) exceed those limits in my campaigns, but they aren't used very often compared to other combat maneuvers.

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The most important thing is for the GM to keep control.

 

Talking out of turn? That's a paddlin'.

Not knowing how to add up damage dice? That's a paddlin'.

Not being ready when your character has a Phase? Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin'.

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Making offbeat characters can encourage players to try tactics, especially if the bad guys use it.  For example, a slow but high DCV character that encourages use of area effect, or a really tough but easy to hit character that encourages haymakers, like you suggested.  Normally in a game its bad form to suggest things to the players, but when you're just starting out its good to give them some suggestions.  I made a useful sheet to help players with suggested moves and maneuvers, too, might be worth printing out a few copies to hand out.

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Making offbeat characters can encourage players to try tactics, especially if the bad guys use it.  For example, a slow but high DCV character that encourages use of area effect, or a really tough but easy to hit character that encourages haymakers, like you suggested.  Normally in a game its bad form to suggest things to the players, but when you're just starting out its good to give them some suggestions.  I made a useful sheet to help players with suggested moves and maneuvers, too, might be worth printing out a few copies to hand out.

 

Your useful sheet was one of the things that got us to try this last night, so mondo kudos to you, Sir Taylor.

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Well, the last campaign I ran, I did find Hero System combat to be a bit slow.  However, it wasn't boring.  It was slow in terms of how long it takes to complete a fight scene but I didn't let it get too bogged down by one person's indecision.  I did little things to expedite matters.  While the amount of time it take to finish a fight scene is longer than nearly all of the other games that I have gmed, it is no slower than Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 or Pathfinder and it seems to move at a faster pace.  In fact, I think D&D at high levels is not only slower but a bit harder to keep track of because of so many accumulating modifiers that can be too easy to forget by mistake.  While Hero System 6th Edition books are large with a lot of rules, the game doesn't have as many parts to it as D&D 3.5.  As far as characters, once you know the Powers, Modifiers, Skills, and Talents, you are set.  There are a finite number of different components to a character; it's just that those components can be combined in an infinite number of ways.  D&D on the other hand has so many feats, spells, class features and pieces of equipment--all with their own, sometimes very detailed, rules-- that you would be hard pressed to know them all.  I found myself looking up stuff in D&D far more than I did Hero System even though I ran D&D more.  It gets even more so if you add splat books.  With Hero System, new books do add more content and options but rarely are there completely new things to learn.  Note, I am in no way denigrating D&D, which I think  is a fine system, especially Pathfinder, I am just giving my opinion based on my experience.

 

What I like the most about Hero System combat is that it is cinematic by default but you can tweak it to add a bit more realism.  It is also by default rather forgiving in that it is far easier under normal circumstances to knock a player out than to kill him.  I also think that while the system it cinematic, it's implementation is somewhat realistic because of using 3d6.  Dice results are more predictable and what is on your character sheet seems to matter more.  Dice don't seem to decide the outcome as much as they do in a game like D&D.  I find it easier to gauge the outcome of a scenario in Hero System than I do in D&D.  I just like the balance of the cinematic vs realism that Hero System offers compared to most games.

 

I also like the different combat maneuvers and options in Hero System combat more than I do pretty much any other system that I have played.  I think it is very well designed.  You certainly have a lot of choices and it is a bit more of a thinking man's game from a tactical sense.  That being said, I do have a bit of a love/hate relationship  with the Speed table.

 

Lastly, I love all of the details that Steve added to the 6th Edition system.  While the books are lengthy, the length is really deceptive.  I like having all of those options, rules, and explanations readily available when I need them.  It is by far the best version of Hero System.

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I love the speed table, a lot.  Its one of the features of Hero that really attracted me to the game ad I love to show off.  It produces amazingly interesting tactical effects and can simulate martial arts fights in a very effective way.  It also shows off just how powerful speedsters really are.

 

However, it does have its limits and can be frustratingly exact and mechanical in a way real combat is not.  In one sense, that's the fault of the PCs, who in my experience are very unwilling to block and dodge as much as you would in real life; it means basically sacrificing a phase and you have to wait to move again.  But it would make combat seem less precise and regular.  I've toyed with the idea of randomizing or making it more inexact (such as allowing people to move up to their speed in a turn whenever they want or rolling dice to see if a character moves on this segment based on their phase, etc) but it all ends up more complicated and I fear would slow things down even more.

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Al the various maneuvers are appealing, I think they'll be more so when I get a feel for them. But the various abort options remind me of Shadowrun 5th edition's various interrupt actions, which is a very good thing.

 

Yes, I know that HERO 6 predates SR5. But that's not the order I experienced them in. :)

 

I expect a lot of blocking and dodging, because, y'know, why get hit when you could not? Says the guy who builds low DCV/high PD & BOD characters...

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I love the speed table, a lot.  Its one of the features of Hero that really attracted me to the game ad I love to show off.  It produces amazingly interesting tactical effects and can simulate martial arts fights in a very effective way.  It also shows off just how powerful speedsters really are.

 

However, it does have its limits and can be frustratingly exact and mechanical in a way real combat is not.  In one sense, that's the fault of the PCs, who in my experience are very unwilling to block and dodge as much as you would in real life; it means basically sacrificing a phase and you have to wait to move again.  But it would make combat seem less precise and regular.  I've toyed with the idea of randomizing or making it more inexact (such as allowing people to move up to their speed in a turn whenever they want or rolling dice to see if a character moves on this segment based on their phase, etc) but it all ends up more complicated and I fear would slow things down even more.

Yeah, but I think players like that are going to play like that regardless of the game.  I think the Hero System just gives you more options so tactical ineptitude and a one dimensional combat style just show up even more so than it does in a game with fewer options.  I have had plenty players whose mindset was just attack, attack, hit, hit, attack.  I am by no means tactically gifted but I just try to show them how they could fight a little smarter.  You would be amazed at how fast people can learn when that character they invested so much time in gets his face planted in the ground because of stupidity.  Still, it is not as much an issue for my groups because I tend to have campaigns that are lot more character driven and character interactive than combative.  We also have a tendency to be a lot more laid back at the gaming table.  Therefore, I am not invested enough in combat that I need it to be all that stimulating.

 

My biggest issue with the Speed table is that it is connected to movement.  In spite of how I am not a combat junkie, the results of that coupling just irk me.  Of course Steve has provided fine tools for completely separating the two (APG pg. 161) but I am not sure it is worth the work.  I may give it a try if and when I run Hero System next.

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I admit I have not yet read that part of the Advanced Players Guide, but I have trouble imagining how that works.

 

As long as "Move" is an action one can take, and SPD = number of actions you have in a Turn, I don't see a way to get around the idea that how far you can move in a Turn is a product of both how far you move when you move, and how often you can move that far.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I don't move often enough nor far enough

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I'm beginning to feel really fortunate, based on what I'm reading. The players know the rules and combat. If combat is relatively slow, it's because they're feeling free to have their character roleplay talk to others - whether other heroes or villains. This isn't just a "I hit them. take your damage" combat; the characters are involved not just in trying to defeat the enemies but helping teammates, roleplaying what their characters do, reacting to threats by villains and occasionally saving innocent bystanders that are too close to combat. On a quick episode, our group can play through an entire episode in 1 1/2 hours, including combat, and this is with one GM and six players. A long episode for us is about four hours, including combat.

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Easy. Buy Movement in meters per Turn, then divide that with your SPD - the result is how far you can move each phase.

Actually, the part I was referring to goes a step further than that.  If you read APG (pg. 161, 2nd column) under the heading Decoupling Movement And Speed, it refers to characters moving every segment.  It makes changes to the cost of Movement Powers and involves more bookkeeping since movement is every segment in addition to keeping up with what goes on in everyone's phases.  While it does address the issue that I have with the Speed table, it is a good bit of extra work that I'm not sure is worth the effort but I might be curious enough to try it.

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My worst experience was joining a group where I didn't really know anyone but they said they had been playing for years. My first full day there, we spent six hours on one turn of combat. Six hours. To this day I don't understand what the hell happened. I got a lot of reading done waiting for my turn, though.

 

Usually it's not that bad, of course, but it can be awfully slow. In my experience, the worst part is every player wants to do something besides strike or take a shot. They want to analyze every possibility and do the most interesting move possible. Martial artists are the worst. And yes, I've been guilty of this, too.

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Some other tips to help streamline: don't allow people with fiddly powers to decide what they do with it on their phase.  In other words, if someone has a multipower with 18 powers in it, or a blast with variable advantage, or a power pool, or anything of that nature, don't let them pick the power on their phase.  If they don't know already or cannot answer quickly, they either hold or do what they did last phase.

 

I have had to require players to only use power pool abilities they have written up before play starts to control this.  Some people are pretty good on the fly, working up something while everyone else is acting, but some aren't and few things are worse than waiting for Power Pool Guy to take 10 minutes with a calculator to create the perfect power.

 

Strike Force has a great tip that I've used before.  If there's a tactic or something you want players to do; have a team attack them that uses this and does really well against them.  Code words for pre-planned maneuvers, blocks, using terrain, what have you.  Seeing it done effectively can make a big difference in encouraging people to try it themselves.  And if you have to fudge things a little bit to help it work, try not to have it fail when the PCs try it.  Few things discourage attempting new things as much as failing the first time.

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When playing without all the optional rules, combat normally takes about 20 minutes for our group. However if the fight is important such as a final showdown versus the campaign big bad a fight can take hours as the players start talking about their actions and working in sync with each other.

 

The biggest difference is always in the player decision tree. If their decision is as simple as find the closest mob and stab it, then combat hours fast. But when they are talking about build ups for doing a haymaker in a phase that they will not sure in, but needs to file the wizards magic net, while still holding off long enough to get the warlock's chasm owned first it can become very tactical, with presence attacks, sages, haymakers, entangle and flash all being needed to get a blow that is worth it, all while hoping not to sure before that phase 10 action comes up

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Six hours?  That's awful.  I've never had a turn of combat take that long, unless maybe we stopped and went to get food in the middle of it.  I've made it through a turn of combat in like one minute when it was a duel between two Spd 7 martial artists.  Block block block block block block block.  But that involved two players who knew what they wanted to do.  Players who aren't comfortable with the combat options yet should be steered, if possible, to characters that won't paralyze them with indecision.  I saw a player with a VPP once who couldn't make up his mind to save his life.

 

As far as incremental movement, I think of a phase as a panel in a comic book.  It's where you see your character do his thing.  It isn't a wargame simulator where tracking movement per segment is important.  You're considered to be in constant motion, but it is just represented in your phase.  I'm fine with that.

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Variable Power Pools are pretty much a no-no for beginners, since they can slow combat to an agonizing crawl. A similar warning I would give for Multipowers with more than four or five slots. You might also consider limiting martial artists to six maneuvers.

 

Get a 3x5 index card for each character and write down pre-figured amounts for OCV, DCV and damage for each of their maneuvers. It's a time saver for new players or those who are math phobic.

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Yeah, when running Pathfinder, I had index cards with each character's name, and essential combat stats on them. When we did initiative, I'd order the cards accordingly. Then we had a pretty streamlined flow, call out whose turn it was, call out who was next, and have their AC, saves, HP and such in front of me. I'd mark down HP changes on the cards, so when they came up, I had a little reminder.

 

The "X is up, Y is on deck" method in particular, really helped out. This way, Y could start thinking about what they wanted to do before the spotlight was on them, which is super helpful for people who get frazzled making decisions on the spot, and I've found it to be a nice little reminder for everybody.

 

I'm not sure how I'd do that with the SPD chart yet.

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Yeah, when running Pathfinder, I had index cards with each character's name, and essential combat stats on them. When we did initiative, I'd order the cards accordingly. Then we had a pretty streamlined flow, call out whose turn it was, call out who was next, and have their AC, saves, HP and such in front of me. I'd mark down HP changes on the cards, so when they came up, I had a little reminder.

 

The "X is up, Y is on deck" method in particular, really helped out. This way, Y could start thinking about what they wanted to do before the spotlight was on them, which is super helpful for people who get frazzled making decisions on the spot, and I've found it to be a nice little reminder for everybody.

 

I'm not sure how I'd do that with the SPD chart yet.

Put all of the characters (including any villains, etc.)  in Hero Designer. On the File Menu you can do a Combat Record Export. You can do this manually of course, but HD makes it faster.

 

I'll also mention Hero Combat Manager, but that is an additional purchase. The combat record you can do with what you already have.

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