A Look At The Evolution of Champions/Hero

[Doc Democracy]

PS Yeah I know that I am replying to a year old post.

More than I did, just looked at the page when Lucius did his necromancy...

[Hugh Neilson]

A superhero setting would be difficult to built in this fashion

Isn't that what Mutants and Masterminds is?

 

A Supers setting would have much less customization in its power sets, but how much of a Supers setting exists in the first dozen issues of a new comic not set in an established Supers universe?

[Ninja-Bear]

Isn't that what Mutants and Masterminds is?

 

A Supers setting would have much less customization in its power sets, but how much of a Supers setting exists in the first dozen issues of a new comic not set in an established Supers universe?

I agree. Take look at how villain write ups have change from Enemies I to Conquerers, Killers and Crooks. Even accounting that under the earlier editions some of the write ups are smaller so to what was given free back then. Did it stop Champions for being a popular game? Did we need a 3 pg 1,0000 ish or Dr. Destroyer to get people into and playing Champions? CKC is great especially if you compare some earlier villains to its write ups to see how you can expand/fine tune a villain to your world. CKC is nice to see what you can do with the system. However we don't need all that to have a fun game.

[Scott Ruggels2]

It making a game that doesn't have the power construction section at all. It has all of the Superskills, Spells, special abilities totally prebuilt. All Monsters, vehicles, equipment, etc prebuilt and ready to go. A game fully built and not requiring that the GM do anything more than Generate NPCs, Plotlines and encounters. It would include a fully fleshed out campaign. At least in the general sense of the word. You could still have future supplements that add stuff to the campaign and add detail to the world. The rules would only include those that are used for that game (ie FHC does this to some extent). A set of Pregenned Characters would also be nice.

 

You have a point, though, it would also I think  be somewhat dependent upon an attractive license to bring people to it.  The sorts of books that may generate Cable TV shows, but before they make it big. (The Expanse, Game of Thrones), or some "fan" popular property that could be aquired with little heavy outlay. Maybe even a popular web comic might do.

 

No one has the marketing chops, or the money to sell an unknown property to the masses here at this time.

 

I still might like an appendix section that mentions Hero, though.

[Spence]

I agree. Take look at how villain write ups have change from Enemies I to Conquerers, Killers and Crooks. Even accounting that under the earlier editions some of the write ups are smaller so to what was given free back then. Did it stop Champions for being a popular game? Did we need a 3 pg 1,0000 ish or Dr. Destroyer to get people into and playing Champions? CKC is great especially if you compare some earlier villains to its write ups to see how you can expand/fine tune a villain to your world. CKC is nice to see what you can do with the system. However we don't need all that to have a fun game.

 

Again yes,

In my opinion, for what that is worth, one of the biggest issues with Hero as a game as opposed to Hero as a rule system is that while meticulous detail is great in a rule set mechanics'wise.  That same level of detail is bad written BAD and crushes a "game".   The early incarnations of the various villains and organizations were great because the level of detail was low and broad making it easy for a GM to insert as needed for their world.  The later versions were so busy spelling out all the plans up to and including the color of toilet paper used that it actually became work to go in and change things.   While the Book of the Machine, DEMON and the latest Dr. Destroyer were great reads, the plot details were more of a hindrance than a plus for trying to use them.

 

You have a point, though, it would also I think  be somewhat dependent upon an attractive license to bring people to it.  The sorts of books that may generate Cable TV shows, but before they make it big. (The Expanse, Game of Thrones), or some "fan" popular property that could be aquired with little heavy outlay. Maybe even a popular web comic might do.

 

No one has the marketing chops, or the money to sell an unknown property to the masses here at this time.

 

I still might like an appendix section that mentions Hero, though.

 

Unless you get a major license, I don't see a lesser relatively unknown license helping. For sword style fantasy and basic generic setting would be fine.  D&D, Pathfinder and 13th Age all draw on the same vanilla generic common setting with a few minor quibbles and some names.  But I can easily swap villages/locations between them and they all use orc's, goblins and so on.   And trying to be "unique" and "new" should be avoided at all costs.  Call it an elf.  Call it a human.  Call it a dwarf.  Call them Fighters.  Call them Rangers and so on.   The idea is to allow the player to play a archetype (class) and race they are familiar with.  But play that character in a much better and personal way. 

 

The statement of "I still might like an appendix section that mentions Hero, though" confuses me though.  A game like this will mention Hero as it core powering system and there should definitely be an appendix with all the arcane Hero annotation for all the builds in the book with a note that people interested in fully customizing their game they should get FHC and here are all the details of how this particular setting was built.  

[Tasha]

You have a point, though, it would also I think  be somewhat dependent upon an attractive license to bring people to it.  The sorts of books that may generate Cable TV shows, but before they make it big. (The Expanse, Game of Thrones), or some "fan" popular property that could be aquired with little heavy outlay. Maybe even a popular web comic might do.

 

No one has the marketing chops, or the money to sell an unknown property to the masses here at this time.

 

I still might like an appendix section that mentions Hero, though.

I would love to have "free content" (aka available for download on PDF) that gives all of the crunchy details that the Hero Grognard Mechanics crave.

[Tasha]

Again yes,

In my opinion, for what that is worth, one of the biggest issues with Hero as a game as opposed to Hero as a rule system is that while meticulous detail is great in a rule set mechanics'wise.  That same level of detail is bad written BAD and crushes a "game".   The early incarnations of the various villains and organizations were great because the level of detail was low and broad making it easy for a GM to insert as needed for their world.  The later versions were so busy spelling out all the plans up to and including the color of toilet paper used that it actually became work to go in and change things.   While the Book of the Machine, DEMON and the latest Dr. Destroyer were great reads, the plot details were more of a hindrance than a plus for trying to use them.

 

 

Unless you get a major license, I don't see a lesser relatively unknown license helping. For sword style fantasy and basic generic setting would be fine.  D&D, Pathfinder and 13th Age all draw on the same vanilla generic common setting with a few minor quibbles and some names.  But I can easily swap villages/locations between them and they all use orc's, goblins and so on.   And trying to be "unique" and "new" should be avoided at all costs.  Call it an elf.  Call it a human.  Call it a dwarf.  Call them Fighters.  Call them Rangers and so on.   The idea is to allow the player to play a archetype (class) and race they are familiar with.  But play that character in a much better and personal way. 

 

The statement of "I still might like an appendix section that mentions Hero, though" confuses me though.  A game like this will mention Hero as it core powering system and there should definitely be an appendix with all the arcane Hero annotation for all the builds in the book with a note that people interested in fully customizing their game they should get FHC and here are all the details of how this particular setting was built.  

The change was that for 5e and later, Hero Started to write for a REAL Champions Universe. Not just generic supplements that you MIGHT be able to adapt to your campaign. Everything is toward that campaign. So metaplot elements are included and are VERY interesting for playing in that campaign. It makes things MUCH easier to write for if they can define a campaign's power levels, organizations etc. It makes them less adaptable to non CU campaigns. I am glad that that there ARE more plot elements given for the villains. It makes it more likely that I will connect with the Villain and want to include them in an adventure.

 

IMHO there should be NO appendixes that include customization information. That should be a separate document for system mechanics. I'll bet that most GMs and players won't even care about the doc. Most people won't care to make their own spells, talents, weapons etc. IMHO it will only be a small minority of players who will even care about it.

[Doc Democracy]

IMHO there should be NO appendixes that include customization information. That should be a separate document for system mechanics. I'll bet that most GMs and players won't even care about the doc. Most people won't care to make their own spells, talents, weapons etc. IMHO it will only be a small minority of players who will even care about it.

 

In my group I am the only one that cares about the numbers.  I customise the character sheets to remove almost every trace of the background mechanics, only leaving the necessary ones visible.  No-one has ever asked to check my work, to tweak something or create something themselves.  I think Tasha is absolutely correct - we, on these boards, are the ones who want that stuff...and only us.

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would love to have "free content" (aka available for download on PDF) that gives all of the crunchy details that the Hero Grognard Mechanics crave.

 

 

That's kind of where I'm leaning for my fantasy book.  Talents, races, etc don't need the crunchy bits, so they go somewhere other than the player book.  But where?  The GM book will probably be thick enough as is with all the harder rules in it, so probably some free download.

 

Right now I'm looking at making the races available first with their cost, then providing templates for various professions (for skills) backgrounds (for stats) and personalities (for complications) with just a point value on each and let people mix and match to build a character the easy way.  Then, when or if people are more conversant with how Hero works, they can build their own from scratch.

[Ninja-Bear]

The change was that for 5e and later, Hero Started to write for a REAL Champions Universe. Not just generic supplements that you MIGHT be able to adapt to your campaign. Everything is toward that campaign. So metaplot elements are included and are VERY interesting for playing in that campaign. It makes things MUCH easier to write for if they can define a campaign's power levels, organizations etc. It makes them less adaptable to non CU campaigns. I am glad that that there ARE more plot elements given for the villains. It makes it more likely that I will connect with the Villain and want to include them in an adventure.

This of course is ymmv. But instead of arguing an either or of specific versus generic, I wonder if Hero system could do both? Separate books of course. And how to label them I don't know? Still I think there would be a market.

[Sketchpad]

I've started working on villains without listing every cost. I just don't see the necessity in listing every little cost. Plus it helps with the design flow.

[Ninja-Bear]

Can we bring back the 50pt master villain perk?

[Hugh Neilson]

Can we bring back the 50pt master villain perk?

Why? It was only available to NPCs anyway, and they have the amount of points needed to serve their in-game purpose.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't care a lot about the point value of NPCs except when publishing them because people want to know and check their vaguely relative power level.

[steriaca]

Honestly, with Champions, we don't need a "Powered by the Hero System" thing. Instead, I liked how things were like in the 4th edition of the Champions Universe. This was the ICE age, where anyone and everyone can help shape the universe by writing adventures and enemies​ books.

 

Yes, you get clunkers like European Enemies, but you feal like your part of the bullpen of a major comic book company (which fits Champions in the Silver Age and early Iron Age). And, honestly, the idea of supporting any type of campaign in one universe is appealing. Including tone shifts.

[Christopher R Taylor]

With Champions what I'd do is create an official game world setting and build the Champions book not as a generic "here's how to do superheroes" book, but instead "here's the Champions universe and how to play in it!" book.  Write it as if you're writing the official role playing game for DC or Marvel or Image or whatever.  Create the book as if its a game on its own, set in that specific universe.

 

Generic is fine, but once you have the ruleset out, you already have generic.  Now what you need are specific settings for people to plug and play.

[Ninja-Bear]

Why? It was only available to NPCs anyway, and they have the amount of points needed to serve their in-game purpose.

Just to make NPC villains take less space. That's all.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like the Mastermind concept better than statting out all their followers, bases etc as well.  You could still have the option to build them all that stuff but I like the idea of just throwing a few points into "and he has cool stuff and followers" rather than being exact and specific.

[Sketchpad]

With Champions what I'd do is create an official game world setting and build the Champions book not as a generic "here's how to do superheroes" book, but instead "here's the Champions universe and how to play in it!" book.  Write it as if you're writing the official role playing game for DC or Marvel or Image or whatever.  Create the book as if its a game on its own, set in that specific universe.

 

Generic is fine, but once you have the ruleset out, you already have generic.  Now what you need are specific settings for people to plug and play.

 

Couldn't agree more. In addition, I'd spend a bit extra to hire some comic book artists to do some spot illustrations, covers and character illustrations. Not to mention have a cleaner, more modern design.

[Sketchpad]

Honestly, with Champions, we don't need a "Powered by the Hero System" thing. Instead, I liked how things were like in the 4th edition of the Champions Universe. This was the ICE age, where anyone and everyone can help shape the universe by writing adventures and enemies​ books.

 

Yes, you get clunkers like European Enemies, but you feal like your part of the bullpen of a major comic book company (which fits Champions in the Silver Age and early Iron Age). And, honestly, the idea of supporting any type of campaign in one universe is appealing. Including tone shifts.

 

I think this was the beauty of Adventurer's Club and Digital Hero.