Female Redesigns

[Clonus]

Obviously the most blatant problem with Ingvard's redesigns that they were all designed by the same guy and they totally look it without much regard for who the characters are.  Power Girl and Supergirl aren't going to be any more protected from damage because they have less skin showing and Supergirl's cheerleader outfit is no more unreasonable than Superman's painted-on circus outfit.  The only real practicality issue with Power Girl and Supergirl is that cleavage wouldn't work with flying fast in atmosphere.  Bare arms, bare legs, who cares?  That's prudery, not practicality. 

 

That being said there are things that I really like, like the idea of Wonder Woman with her hair in a braid, Elektra's pull-down mask, Sonja's armour (which is more or less what REH's Sonya actually wore).  In fact Elektra and Black Canary work for me because he really seems to be designing street level outfits for everyone.    

[TheQuestionMan]

Faora-Ul Superman Man of Steel

Faora-Ul Superman Man of Steel  

[massey]

Jamie Alexander as Sif

http://www.deviantar...Woman-401429017

At first I read that as Jason Alexander as Sif.

 

And I thought... "What?"

[Pattern Ghost]

Samurai from Arrow TV Series

http://media.comicbook.com/uploads1/2015/05/katana-134830.jpg

 

That's Katana.

[jackalope]

Psuedo-feminist claptrap like this always make me unreasonably angry, but this one really grinds my gears.  First of all, all of the designs are infected with a bland sameness.  Too muted, too much use of material specific texture, it makes the costumes all feel identical.  But that's hardly the main issue that is pissing me off.

 

Second, the attempts to de-sexualize the characters makes them all look prepubescent and is, ultimately, more disturbing.  Third, the artist who did these designs has no concept of The Marvel Way and how to draw heroic proportions.  Superheros do not have realistic proportions, they are bigger and bolder as can be seen in this chart:

 

 

Here's an example of Captain America standing next to a more realistically proportioned man:

 

 

By reducing the proportions of these female superheros, all the artist has done is make them look younger, weaker and less heroic.  But okay, so the artist doesn't know why comic book heroines are drawn the way they are.  That's ignorant, but not so much so that I'd actually get pissed off.

 

But no, it's the Red Sonja panel that has me upset.  Red Sonja is really important to me.  The movie came out when I was 11 and my dad took me to see it.  It was awesome.  So awesome that a few weeks later I saw the Red Box D&D in a store and bought it because it seemed like it was set in the same kind of world as Red Sonja.  A few months later I would buy the 2nd edition of Champions.  So in some sense, Red Sonja is why I'm posting on this forum at all.  I care about Red Sonja a LOT.  So if you're going to redesign Red Sonja, you damn well better know what you're talking about, and this artist doesn't know shit.  Excuse my language, but by the bloody steppes of Hyrkania, I cannot tolerate this sort of brazen ignorance!

 

Sonja's initial garb was a chain haubrek and steel helm.  The chainmail bikini was something she donned to sneak into a sultan's harem and kill him, and she's worn it ever since.  She wears it for several reasons, ONE of which is that it's distracting.  The PRIMARY reason she wears it is because it invites attention from men who don't respect women.  That armor leads to men thinking they can get away with putting their hands on Sonja, which is exactly what she wants.  She wants men to grope her and try to feel her up.  Because then she's justified in defending herself from their rude advances, which means she gets to kill them.  And Sonja loves killing men who don't respect women.

 

But to put Sonja in ARMOR?  IN ARMOR?  HOLY CHRIST!  The Hyborean World has rules, and rule #1 is ONLY P****ES AND COWARDS WEAR ARMOR.  You can wear a mail shirt, and that's it.  Full armor marks you as cannon fodder.  But hey, okay, so the artist doesn't understand genre conventions.  She said Red Sonja is only human!

 

HOLY ****!  Why not just start off the whole thing with "I've never read a Red Sonja story in my ****ing life!"  Red Sonja is not a normal human being!  She's SUPERHUMAN.  She's was raised from a state of near death (possibly from death) by the goddess Scyrah to become the embodiment of women's vengeance.  She can leap thirty feet into the air, dance between a hail of arrows, cleave twenty foot tall demons in half with a single blow, and shrugs off sword blows while receiving scratches.

 

Literally the only thing ARMOR can do is slow Sonja down.  That's why she continues to wear the chainmail bikini -- it doesn't hinder her movements at all.

 

I. Just. Can't.

 

So. Much. Nerdrage. 

 

I sentence this artist to death by being buried alive in Red Sonja back issues.

[jackalope]

Sonja's armour (which is more or less what REH's Sonya actually wore)

 

Robert Howard's Red Sonya was a Renaissance-era cossack.  The character of Red Sonja is entirely the creation of Roy Simmons, and she shares nothing in common with Red Sonya except a name and her hair color.  This is her only description:

 

It was a woman, dressed as von Kalmbach had not seen even the dandies of France dressed. She was tall, splendidly shaped, but lithe. From under a steel cap escaped rebellious tresses that rippled red gold in the sun over her compact shoulders. High boots of Cordovan leather came to her mid-thighs, which were cased in baggy breeches. She wore a shirt of fine Turkish mesh-mail tucked into her breeches. Her supple waist was confined by a flowing sash of green silk, into which were thrust a brace of pistols and a dagger, and from which depended a long Hungarian saber. Over all was carelessly thrown a scarlet cloak.

 

Sonja's original design was much closer to this description:

 

[Netzilla]

Also, in regards to the rules of the Hyborean world, Howard had Conan wearing armor every chance he got (and I don't think you can qualify Conan as either pussy or coward).  The only times Conan was without armor was when it wasn't available.  That held true of Howard's other characters as well. 

 

The comics continuity is very different from Howard's original writings and are the poorer for it, in my opinion.

[jackalope]

Also, in regards to the rules of the Hyborean world, Howard had Conan wearing armor every chance he got (and I don't think you can qualify Conan as either pussy or coward).  The only times Conan was without armor was when it wasn't available.  That held true of Howard's other characters as well. 

 

The comics continuity is very different from Howard's original writings and are the poorer for it, in my opinion.

 

Well, that's simply wrong.  The only armor Conan ever wore in the Howard stories was the occasional chain shirt.  In the vast majority of stories, he wears nothing more than a loincloth, broadbelt, and maybe a helmet.

[Netzilla]

Well, that's simply wrong.  The only armor Conan ever wore in the Howard stories was the occasional chain shirt.  In the vast majority of stories, he wears nothing more than a loincloth, broadbelt, and maybe a helmet.

 

The Frost Giant's Daughter:

"....and at that instant Conan was dashed into the snow, his left shoulder numb from the blow of the survivor, from which the Cimmerian's mail had barely saved his life."

 

The Scarlet Citadel:

"......the black-mailed figure of the western king loomed among his foes...........about his iron clad feet grew a ring of mangled corpses."

 

"Now he grinned bleakly as the kings reined back a safe distance from the grim, iron-clad figure looming among the dead. Before the savage blue eyes blazing murderously from beneath the crested, dented helmet, the boldest shrank.""........his black armor was hacked to tatters and splashed with blood."

 

"It (an axe) clanged on Conan's helmet, striking fire, and the Cimmerian reeled and struck back. The five-foot blade crushed Strabonus' casque and skull......."

 

Queen of the Black Coast

"He (the captain of the boat) saw a tall powerfully built figure in a black scale-mail hauberk, burnished greaves and a blue-steel helmet from which jutted bull's horns highly polished. From the mailed shoulders fell the scarlet cloak........ A broad shagreen belt with a golden buckle held the scabbard of the broadsword he wore."

 

The Black Colossus

"As he passed near a cresset she saw him plainly--a tall man, in the chain-mail hauberk of a mercenary............He stood facing her, his hand on the long hilt that jutted forward from beneath the scarlet cloak which flowed carelessly from his mailed shoulders. The torchlight glinted dully on the polished blue steel of his greaves and basinet."

 

".....a Conan in burnished steel stood before the audience. Clad in the plate-armor, vizor lifted and dark face shadowed by the dark plumes which nodded above his helmet;..."

 

"He seated himself on a boulder, his broadsword across his knees. With the firelight glinting from his blue steel armor, he seemed an image of steel......"

 

An untitled unfinished work:

Conan charging in on horseback:.... ........a dark scarred face under a steel helmet, of a scarlet cloak unfurled from mighty mailed shoulders, and a great sword lashing up and down."............"Wildly driven spears and knives glanced from his helmet or the shield on his left arm......."

 

I can go on.  The loincloth-only thing comes from his thieving days (and even then he typically wore leathers rather than being nearly starkers), he'd been captured and stripped (happened fairly regularly) or he was somehow flat broke.  Once he became a successful mercenary and then king, he regularly wore full armor (helmet, hauberk, greeves, pauldrons, shield, coif, etc).

 

Heck, his armor (once he's king) is complete enough that one of his generals was able to wear it to disguise himself as Conan to keep the troops inspired after Conan had been struck down in his tent by sorcery.

 

When armor was available, Conan wore it.  I see no reason Red Sonja wouldn't as well.

[Enforcer84]

oh my gosh, they weren't as naked as the covers depicted?!!?!

 

Really, the only sin this guy has is the same the movie X-Men did, everyone's in the same outfit. And the colors pop like deflated balloons. 

I have no problem with showing skin or not. I like showing skin but I can certainly see arguments for Tarzan or the Phantom Lady to cover up. 

 

Getting upset over this is like throwing a tantrum about a fake movie poster. 

[Burrito Boy]

I like the character redesigns. But then I'm not a big comic fan.

 

However, I agree with Enforcer84 about the colors. The muted color palette seems more suited to pulp characters than comic characters.

 

Hmmm. Pulp? I think I just figured out why I like these pictures.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah Conan wore as much armor as he could get, because he was no dummy.  And, because he was big as a house he could wear heavy armor and not be bothered at all.

[Comic]

I'm never going to bust on someone else's creativity, really.

 

I think it's great that people with talent share it, and spread their vision of worlds and people who never existed, to bring life to their stories.

 

Even when the creativity is tribute to the original, or recasts originals in ways to make a point vividly flaunted by the original.

 

Dress Wonder Woman up as a meek footsoldier? Sure, why not, if that's your take on the character.

 

Dress up Supergirl in sensible drab her local pastor could find no fault with? I have no issue with that.

 

Oh. Wait. Actually, I do.

 

Hulk wears purple freaking pants, or nothing.

 

Galactus wears headgear that makes no sense in any context.

 

Reed Richards was super enough to invent costume uniforms to cover three of the Fantastic Four, but Ben Grimm wore short shorts.

 

The costumes, the clothes, the gear, the appearance of comic book characters, while subject to interpretation in other media, carry meanings and messages and tell stories of their own.

 

It's pure plagiarism to reject their story and substitute a line of your own and retain attribution to the original character.

 

You want to tell a story invoking originals, then accept them whole or don't abuse them, or at least have the decency to call them a reboot.

 

There's nothing stopping a person from inventing their own original characters and dressing them any way they want.

[jackalope]

I can go on.  The loincloth-only thing comes from his thieving days (and even then he typically wore leathers rather than being nearly starkers), he'd been captured and stripped (happened fairly regularly) or he was somehow flat broke.  Once he became a successful mercenary and then king, he regularly wore full armor (helmet, hauberk, greeves, pauldrons, shield, coif, etc).

 

I like how all of your examples, except perhaps one, are of Conan wearing a mail shirt, which I had already noted he occasionally wears...

[Pattern Ghost]

All the guys in the first pic in post 30 have "middle" written next to their man parts.

 

I find that vaguely disturbing.

[Ragitsu]

The "they need armor all over" excuse might work for a street level superhero (i.e. human), but is outright idiotic for a brick/flying brick that already has superhumanly durable skin (such as Miss Martian or Rogue).

[Ragitsu]

It's further proof that what works visually on a comic page often doesn't work in real life, and vice versa.

 

If it is repeated enough times, it must be true.

 

I guess muted colors, leather (or a leathery appearance), and full body coverage (no matter your superpower origins) are the only way to go if you are a "mature" "adult" connoisseur of comics.

 

*sniff* Colored costumes...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I find it intriguing that while cosplayers do amazing, beautiful, visually stunning work with accurate comic book costumes with full dazzling color, some people still assume emphatically that films require dulled, muted, darkened colors or it simply cannot work.

[massey]

I find it intriguing that while cosplayers do amazing, beautiful, visually stunning work with accurate comic book costumes with full dazzling color, some people still assume emphatically that films require dulled, muted, darkened colors or it simply cannot work.

 

Well, the X-Men movies came out at a time when our most recent experience with superhero movies was Batman and Robin, with all of its campy... gayness.  I mean, bat nipples.  So I understand X-Men going with the black leather look.  That was actually new then and it looked good onscreen.  In that universe, those design choices made sense.  I think in the movies that came after, they were simply following X-Men's lead (sometimes unthinkingly).

 

X-Men was like 16 years ago, so now a lot of people have that as their default mental image for how superheroes are supposed to look.  That's what we're seeing with these redesigns -- a grim, paramilitary style.  Not my cup of tea.  It's especially inappropriate with someone like Supergirl.  She's got invulnerable skin, and certainly doesn't need any sort of kevlar costume.  She pretty much wears a cheerleader outfit, which isn't really that unreasonable for a girl her age.

[Greywind]

Comic, originally Ben wore a full costume with a helmet to cover his face. He trashed it deliberately the first time out.

[Netzilla]

I like how all of your examples, except perhaps one, are of Conan wearing a mail shirt, which I had already noted he occasionally wears...

 

First, your definition of "occasional" and mine apparently differ since Conan wears some form of armor (usually chain or scale mail) in most of his stories and in nearly all of them from his mercenary days onward.

 

Second, your original statement was that when he wore armor it was only a "mail shirt".  In actuality he also wore helmets, grieves, pauldrons and frequently carried a shield, never mind the times he wore heavier armor as king.

 

Third, I never once claimed that he always or even mostly wore heavy armor but rather that he wore armor every chance he got.  His default mode was not a loincloth and broadbelt only.  Given the choice, he wore armor.

 

Fourth, your claim that

 

 

 

The Hyborean World has rules, and rule #1 is ONLY PUSSIES AND COWARDS WEAR ARMOR.

 

 

 

is patently false.

 

Now, are you willing to admit that you overstated your case in regards to heroes of the hyborean age wearing armor, and that Red Sonja wearing armor is not completely out of character, or do you want to continue this digression?

[massey]

My biggest problem is that this attempt to make comic books "realistic" is laughably inconsistent.  "Oh no!  Wonder Woman's boots have high heels on them!  That's so unrealistic!"  Of course they ignore that she is a magical immortal golem made out of clay who can survive explosions, lift an oil tanker, and fly.

 

Red Sonja is a badass warrior babe who is so good at fighting she never even gets touched.  When you're that good, you don't need armor.

[bigbywolfe]

Okay, I'm not arguing this with you, because frankly, you're a fucking idiot. My claim that "The Hyborean World has rules, and rule #1 is ONLY PUSSIES AND COWARDS WEAR ARMOR." is not patently false, you fuckstick. It's called a JOKE. Why don't you try developing a goddamn sense of humor, you fucking robot pisstain.

 

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yes, it is false. You made a blatantly false statement, don't treat others like crap for pointing it out.

Your description of Conan sounds like someone who only ever read the comics, not the source material, it is that blatantly wrong. Conan wore armor every chance he got and he never willingly walked around in a loin cloth. He usually wore the clothing of whatever country he was in (if he could afford or steal it) and was described as being hairy (also unlike the comic).

The examples you so readily dismiss were not all chain mail shirts, they included full chain mail, full plate, and full scale armor. Unless he was trying to be sneaky he never willingly went without armor, period.

[Enforcer84]

I find it intriguing that while cosplayers do amazing, beautiful, visually stunning work with accurate comic book costumes with full dazzling color, some people still assume emphatically that films require dulled, muted, darkened colors or it simply cannot work.

Agreed. I have decided that movie studios prefer the dark so they can make the action/effects easier/cheaper.

[Enforcer84]

Let's keep the language respectable, gents. Don't want anyone getting put on time out.