Female Redesigns

[Enforcer84]

So if we take out the Grandmothers we are getting 10-15 between us. Waller isn't a superhero, And Bertha is perfect in her Secret ID. 

All of which is still saying that the average super heroine or villainess is going to have a model's physique. And they can give reasons, but they are that way because that's how the creators wanted them. And the vast majority dressed in skintight costumes with various levels of skin showing because that's what the creators wanted. Which is their right, but someone saying "I think these costumes make more sense" is an opinion, not a social issue. 

[Enforcer84]

I'd like to apologize if I came across a bit combative.

 

Had a rough day at work.

 

Chad's Rough Day Spoiler

 

 

Somedays I slay the dragon, someday the dragon slays me. Today I spent seven hours trying to figure out why AutoCAD decided not to open after the user plugged her laptop into an older monitor. 

 

After uninstalling and reinstalling video drivers and then the program itself, and then playing with registry fixes I'd spent 7 hours angrily ignoring other people asking for help to not fix this bastard. I was finally sent home and my Net Admin said he'd look at it. Then he emailed me at 6pm and said it was all working. 

 

At 10 pm I logged in to look at it and asked if he'd rebooted the laptop to see if the regedit fix would undo itself like it had when I was working on it. He said no, I rebooted it and lo and behold it was still broken. So 45 minutes and 3 weird fix attempts later, in addition to a bunch of updates, and some deleted Autoruns it worked. I slew the dragon, 

 

With the unintentional back-swing of a clumsy strike while I was falling off the cliff. But it's dead and I'm technically alive. 

 

 

 

I don't think this guy made some sort of social evil by covering them up. I think his colors are too drab and the one material is a bit over used, but it's very movie friendly and makes easily as much sense as fishnets and a bathing suit as combat gear. 

 

However, I don't mind fishnets and a bathing suit, in fact I'm quite fond of them especially with the little dinner jacket. I'm a big fan of Power Girl in general and most of her costumes, though the white and gold one needed a cape. I like my Krytponians with capes. I prefer Wanda's gypsy look to the Avengers movie version, but I can totally see why they'd do it that way. 

 

Anyway. Yeah, superheroes are generally fit. They wear spandex more often than not. The quilted body armor with muted colors is a shame, but not at all an issue of empowerment, IMMO 

[Old Man]

Off topic, but I have a policy to nuke and pave any workstation that can't be fixed in an hour.  F__k that dragon.

[DusterBoy]

A couple of points - female superheros are going to be built like athletes, not supermodels. Also armour, including plate, did not hinder one's movements. It was speciically designed to spread it's weight evenly across the body. The convept that it was so heavy knights needed to be winched into their horses is nonsense, a Victorian myth. I've seen people do stunt riding on horses in plate, plus do jumping jacks and cartwheels. The main disadvatage was exhaustion, because it was heavy, and that the visor cut of your peripheral vision.  Also, waring a gambeson underneath mail was essential, since obviously metal armour is going to heat up quickly, even on mild day, Also, it was quiet. You can jump up and down in a hauberk or byrnie and no one would know you were wearing it.

[Comic]

This is not about disrespecting heavy armor.

 

This is not about respecting inane clothing choices made by people who end up in combat.

 

On an ordinary human being, Peter Parker's spandex unitard and full face mask would be among the least plausible pragmatic costumes possible. But he's Spiderman, strong enough to lift a bus and quick enough to dodge automatic fire from multiple shooters. His costume is a work of imagination.

 

Work of imagination. Property of the artist.

 

There's a world of difference between knowing it's not practical, and shutting it down because it represents something for you as a reader you object to on some political or religious basis. And let's make no bones about this: Lord Whosit wasn't presenting aesthetic arguments, and the 'practicality' was clearly just an excuse, for imposing moral standards on others from a religious or political perspective.

 

That is censorship.

 

By the way, Ogress, the original Rogue, Mystique's Precog Oracle, every Morlock, the Brood, Superman's mom, and his bio-mom, pretty much every robe-draped priestess in pretty much every genre comic, pretty much every character in the roles of motherhood or authority or utterly alien.. like Alien. Those idealised sexy skin-tight, exposed female forms are the relative rarity.

 

Etta Candy was Diana Prince's bestie, much like Lois Lane was to Clark Kent -- and while Lois Lane was remarked to be a looker, she rarely appeared in spandex, or anything that would draw the disdain of a nun.

 

The original X-men uniform and most since the original did nothing to make Jean Grey into Dark Phoenix; Mastermind did that, and her change in clothes reflected her personality shift. How would Lord Blah's censorious worldview have illustrated Jean Grey's fall as Mastermind molded her: with a burka and veil?

 

So Power Girl has a bust and isn't shamed by judgmental strangers into covering it up. So Supergirl wears a version of her cousin's suit: you think Superman isn't dressed to expose his physical features? That he's a physical ideal is kinda his whole point.

 

Movie friendly is a great point. It's also a lousy excuse for censorship, which this is.

 

My objection isn't the idea of people in quilted costumes with colors that make it easier to skulk in the dark. Those are imaginative, too. There's just no way that targeting people who dress differently and suggesting we'd be morally improved by not seeing them is going to fly, or shouldn't be challenged.

[massey]

Etta Candy is Wonder Woman's fat friend.

 

You'd have a similar hard time finding a male superhero character who isn't in perfect shape. They wear spandex and impractical outfits too.

 

Some female heroes would be built like athletes, but not necessarily all. I am reminded of the Lois and Clark episode where she looks in his kitchen cabinet and sees that it's filled with junk food and candy -- Lois expected he'd be a health food nut because of his physique, but it turns out he doesn't exercise at all. Power Girl looks like Kate Upton because Kryptonian DNA.

[bigbywolfe]

No matter how much you don't like this redesign it's not censorship. No matter how many times you say it it doesn't magically become censorship.

[Enforcer84]

This is not about disrespecting heavy armor.

 

This is not about respecting inane clothing choices made by people who end up in combat.

 

On an ordinary human being, Peter Parker's spandex unitard and full face mask would be among the least plausible pragmatic costumes possible. But he's Spiderman, strong enough to lift a bus and quick enough to dodge automatic fire from multiple shooters. His costume is a work of imagination.

 

Work of imagination. Property of the artist.

 

There's a world of difference between knowing it's not practical, and shutting it down because it represents something for you as a reader you object to on some political or religious basis. And let's make no bones about this: Lord Whosit wasn't presenting aesthetic arguments, and the 'practicality' was clearly just an excuse, for imposing moral standards on others from a religious or political perspective.

 

That is censorship.

 

By the way, Ogress, the original Rogue, Mystique's Precog Oracle, every Morlock, the Brood, Superman's mom, and his bio-mom, pretty much every robe-draped priestess in pretty much every genre comic, pretty much every character in the roles of motherhood or authority or utterly alien.. like Alien. Those idealised sexy skin-tight, exposed female forms are the relative rarity.

 

Etta Candy was Diana Prince's bestie, much like Lois Lane was to Clark Kent -- and while Lois Lane was remarked to be a looker, she rarely appeared in spandex, or anything that would draw the disdain of a nun.

 

The original X-men uniform and most since the original did nothing to make Jean Grey into Dark Phoenix; Mastermind did that, and her change in clothes reflected her personality shift. How would Lord Blah's censorious worldview have illustrated Jean Grey's fall as Mastermind molded her: with a burka and veil?

 

So Power Girl has a bust and isn't shamed by judgmental strangers into covering it up. So Supergirl wears a version of her cousin's suit: you think Superman isn't dressed to expose his physical features? That he's a physical ideal is kinda his whole point.

 

Movie friendly is a great point. It's also a lousy excuse for censorship, which this is.

 

My objection isn't the idea of people in quilted costumes with colors that make it easier to skulk in the dark. Those are imaginative, too. There's just no way that targeting people who dress differently and suggesting we'd be morally improved by not seeing them is going to fly, or shouldn't be challenged.

It's not censorship, it's someone's opinion. Someone who has a modicum of artistic ability and idea for redesigning outfits he thought were silly. That's all this is and all it will be until the comic book companies decide otherwise. 

 

That's it. You are worked up over a big nothing. This guy isn't a comic book creator, he isn't an editor at DC or Marvel. He said, Hey, if I was doing this I might try it this way.

 

And then he got screamed at by people apparently much like yourself who apparently are afraid if comic book companies find out clothes come in layers and fully covering that they'll suddenly start putting out variations of super-nuns. So he apologized for his reimaging. I don't know maybe he was as angry at their original costumes as you are at him - didn't read that only his apology. 

 

Of Course Power Girl isn't going to be shamed. She's fictional. Again, this argument of yours worries me. Her costume has changed and become more covering over the years when it suited DC - like when they wanted to change her origin every other week. 

 

I don't think the artist in question would have felt the need to make Black Queen Jean any different than the storyline called for, but his X-Men uniforms may have been more like the leather jumpers from the movies. 

[Enforcer84]

Etta Candy is Wonder Woman's fat friend.

 

You'd have a similar hard time finding a male superhero character who isn't in perfect shape. They wear spandex and impractical outfits too.

 

Some female heroes would be built like athletes, but not necessarily all. I am reminded of the Lois and Clark episode where she looks in his kitchen cabinet and sees that it's filled with junk food and candy -- Lois expected he'd be a health food nut because of his physique, but it turns out he doesn't exercise at all. Power Girl looks like Kate Upton because Kryptonian DNA.

Is etta a super hero?

 

Because the NPCs yeah aren't all supermodels. 

Beyond Blob and the Chunk you dont see overweight males but you do have your Things (Ever-Lovin' Blue Eyed, Man, and Swamp Varieties), Xombies, Bloks, Hulks, Abominations. 

 

ooh! Abominatrix there's another one for the ladies. And the large woman from the Guardians of the Galaxy. 

[massey]

Is etta a super hero?

 

Because the NPCs yeah aren't all supermodels. 

Beyond Blob and the Chunk you dont see overweight males but you do have your Things (Ever-Lovin' Blue Eyed, Man, and Swamp Varieties), Xombies, Bloks, Hulks, Abominations. 

 

ooh! Abominatrix there's another one for the ladies. And the large woman from the Guardians of the Galaxy. 

 

Not a superhero.  But your words:

 

(I can name 5 non-perfect female body-types in superhero comics (not counting children) -how many can you?) 

 

 

didn't require her to be a superhero.

 

Of course I didn't include Francine Langstrom, the female version of Man-Bat.  Who is strangely still called Man-Bat, and not Woman-Bat.

[Enforcer84]

Not a superhero.  But your words:

 

 

didn't require her to be a superhero.

 

Of course I didn't include Francine Langstrom, the female version of Man-Bat.  Who is strangely still called Man-Bat, and not Woman-Bat.

You're quite correct, I didn't expressly state it had to be superheroes. But since they're the ones (generally) in the skin tight costumes I'd taken it as a given. 

 

But it's a fair cop. Comics have gotten better at dotting the landscape with I won't call them normal proportions as they have to be pretty pronounced - but different ones even for the scenery. 

It was a fun exercise. Even if I missed a few that I knew

[massey]

Well, if you look at it logically, the appearance of heroes should be as much a result of their powers as anything else.

 

Superman is a big muscular guy, right? But unless one of his powers is "looks like bodybuilder", that doesn't make sense. Think about it. For me to look like Superman, I'd have to lift weights like 3 hours a day. And I'd have to lift weights that were really heavy for me, every day for hours and hours. But Superman's strength comes from his Kryptonian super-muscles. Lifting heavy weights requires far less effort for him. He's not going to get stronger lifting a mere airplane. Unless he spends several hours a day out there bench-pressing the moon, he's not building muscle mass. Even in the course of his regular superhero activities, he's not exerting himself that much. Fights with people like Doomsday and Zod are rare, and certainly don't happen often enough for Supes to bulk up from them. "Realistically" Superman should be built like Tom Hanks. It's not like he gets any exercise value from doing push-ups or anything.

 

But oh yeah, super powered appearance.

[dmjalund]

Mystiques precog was called Destiny

[Enforcer84]

Well, if you look at it logically, the appearance of heroes should be as much a result of their powers as anything else.

 

Superman is a big muscular guy, right? But unless one of his powers is "looks like bodybuilder", that doesn't make sense. Think about it. For me to look like Superman, I'd have to lift weights like 3 hours a day. And I'd have to lift weights that were really heavy for me, every day for hours and hours. But Superman's strength comes from his Kryptonian super-muscles. Lifting heavy weights requires far less effort for him. He's not going to get stronger lifting a mere airplane. Unless he spends several hours a day out there bench-pressing the moon, he's not building muscle mass. Even in the course of his regular superhero activities, he's not exerting himself that much. Fights with people like Doomsday and Zod are rare, and certainly don't happen often enough for Supes to bulk up from them. "Realistically" Superman should be built like Tom Hanks. It's not like he gets any exercise value from doing push-ups or anything.

 

But oh yeah, super powered appearance.

yeah but that's not logically (it's not illogic either - it's just trying to justify something that the original creators took for granted), it doesn't have to make sense. That's grasping for a means (not by you necessarily, as the Lois and Clark bit proves; though he did do 1000 pushups at superspeed in the same episode) to the end of Superheroes being drawn larger than life and heroic. That came first. Then we explain it, logically or no. Superman is a big muscular guy because that's the fantasy he portrays. There's a reason Spiderman is leaner than guys like the Human Torch - it has nothing to do with their powers and everything to do with the creative team's desire to have Peter seem more human despite his powers. 

 

Superheroines also (Clearly) fall into the fantasy category, the creative team makes them the way the. For most heroes and heroines, that means hitting the genetic lottery and then either explaining that away via Kryptonian muscles and thighs, or ignoring the fact that the highly trained gymnastic heroines generally look more like Maxim Cover Models and less like gymnasts we see on the olympics (children) or in collegiate events (much more muscular). There is variation - particularly in modern comics, your Golden Age superheroes by and large looked identical save for hair and costume (Men and Women). We later got the heroic monsters in the Silver Age (and most of them were men) and then in the modern era it's really started to show. And of course there will be examples I don't know about from earlier eras because I'm not an expert, I just act like one

 

Now, there are hyper-muscular animals I've seen bulls and dogs with the condition so that kind of thing clearly exists - so it's not a stretch to explain it away. But those explanations have come later as fans and creators try to explain what was once just "he's a superhero." 

[massey]

yeah but that's not logically (it's not illogic either - it's just trying to justify something that the original creators took for granted), it doesn't have to make sense. That's grasping for a means (not by you necessarily, as the Lois and Clark bit proves; though he did do 1000 pushups at superspeed in the same episode) to the end of Superheroes being drawn larger than life and heroic. That came first. Then we explain it, logically or no. Superman is a big muscular guy because that's the fantasy he portrays. There's a reason Spiderman is leaner than guys like the Human Torch - it has nothing to do with their powers and everything to do with the creative team's desire to have Peter seem more human despite his powers. 

 

Superheroines also (Clearly) fall into the fantasy category, the creative team makes them the way the. For most heroes and heroines, that means hitting the genetic lottery and then either explaining that away via Kryptonian muscles and thighs, or ignoring the fact that the highly trained gymnastic heroines generally look more like Maxim Cover Models and less like gymnasts we see on the olympics (children) or in collegiate events (much more muscular). There is variation - particularly in modern comics, your Golden Age superheroes by and large looked identical save for hair and costume (Men and Women). We later got the heroic monsters in the Silver Age (and most of them were men) and then in the modern era it's really started to show. And of course there will be examples I don't know about from earlier eras because I'm not an expert, I just act like one

 

Now, there are hyper-muscular animals I've seen bulls and dogs with the condition so that kind of thing clearly exists - so it's not a stretch to explain it away. But those explanations have come later as fans and creators try to explain what was once just "he's a superhero." 

 

I completely agree with you.  These characters are just drawn larger than life because that's the fantasy they represent.  And a world that has the Legion of Super Pets isn't exactly the most concerned with realism.

[Comic]

It's not censorship?

 

Respectfully, I disagree.

 

Of course it's censorship. Making up other words for it doesn't make it not censorship. Saying it's an opinion is inaccurate: opinion is the thought; promotion of actions that suppress others' ability to express their opinions, that's not itself an opinion. That's a deed. Lord Don't-Look-At-Them performed a deed. The opinion, I have no problem with them holding. The deed, however, was promotion of censorship, and that is a touchy topic.

 

Saying the reason that the proponent of the censorship was doing it was out of concern about silliness doesn't make it not censorship.

 

After all, 'comic' and 'silly' are near synonyms; it's antithetical to comics to take the silliness out of them.

 

Suppressing someone else's graphic images, promoting suppression of graphic images, for whatever excuse, is the definition of censorship.

 

And if someone doesn't think censorship is worth getting worked up about, that's fine with me. Not everyone values freedoms the same way. But pretending it ain't an invasion of freedoms, that's just denial.

 

I'm not even touching on the implicit and unavoidable issue of body shaming. Well, yeah, I already did, earlier.

 

But I'm not further exploring why someone is so offended by the 'silliness' of some select humanoid body parts in scant decor (after all, almost none of the ladies in question are actually human, are they?) as to imply that those human body parts that correspond to them must be shameful, wrong and evil. Because that would be getting worked up about a big nothing.

 

Since, after all, none of the people with parts like those matter much, right?

[Ragitsu]

A couple of points - female superheros are going to be built like athletes, not supermodels. Also armour, including plate, did not hinder one's movements. It was speciically designed to spread it's weight evenly across the body. The convept that it was so heavy knights needed to be winched into their horses is nonsense, a Victorian myth. I've seen people do stunt riding on horses in plate, plus do jumping jacks and cartwheels. The main disadvatage was exhaustion, because it was heavy, and that the visor cut of your peripheral vision.  Also, waring a gambeson underneath mail was essential, since obviously metal armour is going to heat up quickly, even on mild day, Also, it was quiet. You can jump up and down in a hauberk or byrnie and no one would know you were wearing it.

 

 

Hey, in comics, we often have our cake and eat it too. Expect athletic supermodels .

[bigbywolfe]

Now you're just rambling. No one has said anything to imply that women ("people with parts like that") don't matter. No one has said anything that could remotely be construed as that without blatant and intentionally twisting their words beyond all reason. Drop the strawman arguments and accusations of sexism and explain who you think is being censored by the creation of these images.

[薔薇語]

I am with Bigbywolfe here. Censorship is about an external legal force coming in and denying one's ability to speak or be expressive. This guy's redesigns are not, by force of law, making any comic book artist redesign their characters. No more than is any outcry against him promoting these designs making him, by force of law, redesign them. 


When Donald Trump says something stupid and we all react to point out he is a moron and should not be given power and hopefully will shut up, we are not censoring him. When DC or Marvel produces ludicrous female character designs and we call them out as such, we are not censoring. When this guy produces counter designs that are not good, and we call him out for such, we are not censoring. 

When we call for governments to come in and fine people and businesses, arrest people, shut down businesses and such, we are calling for censorship. We have not reach that level by a mile. 

Foreign Orchid. 

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

FWIW, Etta Candy and Amanda Waller have been 'fixed.'

 

  

[Burrito Boy]

FWIW, Etta Candy and Amanda Waller have been 'fixed.'

 

 

Help control the comic book character population. Have your comic book character spayed or neutered.

[Comic]

Soylent Green is people.

 

So is censorship.

 

This isn't a straw man, this is putting what's happening in blunt terms and calling it what it is.

 

When I look at cosplayers, some of the ones who dress as Power Girl or Supergirl are actually real human females. And while not all of them are, and I'm sure some of them don't enjoy cosplay but are forced into it against their will by the tyranny of an oppressive cosplay system, some cosplayers seem to enjoy it and find it rewarding to wear clothes like the ones Lord Cover-Your-Eyes substituted drab formless coveralls for while strapping down anything that suggested femininity.

 

So if there are people who like to dress that way in the real world, and you have cosplay as direct proof that there are, and that it is possible to dress that way, and that sure, it may be silly but it's no sillier than fashions from when your parents were young, and a lot less silly than some of the things they made you wear to grade school, but the people wearing those clothes like it and consider it an expression of who they are, then how much moreso for the comic book characters in the fantasy worlds they occupy?

 

Cynically, sure, maybe there are some less than ideal reasons some of them look as they do. But so what?

 

By accident of diversity, there are people who do look like that, and Lord Her-Proportions-Are-Indecent has clearly decided that diversity is shameful.

 

This is not an innocent playing dress-up with beloved characters to explore what a world would be like if things were different.

 

This is body shaming.

 

The original Power Girl was no more extremely different or extremely dressed than the images in Cosmo magazine have been, and its editors and publishers have been strong, accomplished independently-minded women of financial power and business prestige, so I don't buy the argument of exploitation being implied by the costumes or looks of comic book women of any particular appearance. (And there are many different appearances.)

 

Making Wonder Woman cover up so she doesn't scandalize Lord Her-Bare-Shoulders-Whisper-Evil-Thoughts-In-My-Head?!

 

Why wouldn't that be offensive to a person?

 

Put another way; if it were the thing you do recognize as censorship, would it bother you?

 

If these body-shaming reasons I've set out above were the explicit rationale given for it to you, would that bother you?

 

Well, that's what I see in this, and it bothers me.

 

Maybe censorship and body shaming are just in the eye of the beholder.

[Ragitsu]

I guess the ability to differentiate between fantasy and reality while possibly enjoying the former (or at the least, ignoring it if fails to provide buoyancy to your schooner) is far less important then the ability to shout at others to make their fantasy conform to reality.

[薔薇語]

Comic, me disagreeing with you does not mean I am censoring you. No more than this artist disagreeing with DC or Marvel designs is censoring them. Censorship has a definition, this isn't it. No amount of posturing is going to magically move simple "disagreement" into the realm of "censorship". 

Now, I can gather that you take issue with some of what is commonly called "PC culture" when it comes to female comic book character design. You seem to think of this guy and his attempts to re-draw the characters as an aspect of that "PC Culture". And you know what, I agree with you. In general I think a lot of people get real bent out of shape over the designs of fictional characters. But I also know that what they are doing is "disagreement", not censorship. Calling all disagreement censorship diminished the meaning of censorship. 

 

Foreign Orchid. 

[Comic]

Censorship

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

 

Madama Anastasie (allegory ofcensorship) by André Gill, June 19, 1874

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.^[1]

Governments, private organizations and individuals may engage in censorship. When an individual such as an author or other creator engages in censorship of their own works or speech, it is called self-censorship. Censorship may be direct or it may be indirect, in which case it is called soft censorship. It occurs in a variety of different media, including speech, books, music, films, and other arts, the press, radio, television, and the Internet for a variety of claimed reasons includingnational security, to control obscenity, child pornography, and hate speech, to protect children or other vulnerable groups, to promote or restrict political or religious views, and to prevent slander and libel.

 

Censorship has many broad and specific definitions, and this fits the mold. We may disagree how close the fit, but in my experience the start of every censorship movement is the same thin edge of the wedge: it's people, persuaded by some innocent-seeming comment or observation, to gang up on diversity and seek to lessen it.

 

That this example is aimed in particular at traditional objects of censorship, achieving in particular the habitual ends of censorship is bad enough.

 

That the artist further alters the actual bodies of his targets to force conformity, however, goes a step further.

 

See also http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Shaming