Jump to content

Is there no way to build an unbreakable Entangle?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 55
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Unbreakable? Sure - you would build it with DEF and BOD, and define the escape as wriggling out, rather than breaking it.

 

One hit autowin? No - and why should there be? There's no "one hit KO's automatically" or any other "one hit takes out the opponent, no defense or avoidance possible" power - nor should there be.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unbreakable? Sure - you would build it with DEF and BOD, and define the escape as wriggling out, rather than breaking it.

APG 57

 

Attacks Against [Alternate Characteristic] DEX rather than STR for Entangle:

 

DEX on average is much lower than STR so I would place it at (+1/2).

 

The Entangle is "unbreakable" but can be "wiggled out of".

 

DEX provides damage dice for escaping the Entangle as STR otherwise would but the SFX is agility/contortion-based instead.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The 5e and 6e versions of Captain Chronos have a Stop Time Bubble built as a 1d6, 1 PD/ED Entangle, NND (defense is temporal/dimensional manipulation powers), Takes No Damage From Attacks, Costs END To Maintain.

The description says that a target without the NND defense can't escape from the Entangle until Captain Chronos shuts it off.  It also says that the power is "an egregious rules violation".  :winkgrin:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps I missed something in the main HERO 6th Edition books, but, so far, this does not appear to be (rules legal) possible. If I will need a supplement to fulfill my desire, please point me in the right direction.

How can there be a rules conform way to build an absolute, if the first rule of Hero is "No Absolutes"*?

The GM can include optional absolutes. Something like "almost everybody will be certainly killed by 20D6 Killing damage, so an 'instant kill' attack costs as much as 20D6 killing". He has to deal with all the issues that may arise from those decisions. There is a reason HERO has banned using Absolutes in the first place. Mostly because they are game design follies that cause ten times the issues they solve in the short run. And 100 times in the long run.

 

*Not exactly the first. But among the first rules on 6E1 10 by far the most prominent rule.

 

Do you mean not breakable by strenght? There are several options to use different characteristics (APG) or even define a very unusual attack vector against the engangle (6E1). But nothing truly without defense.

There is also the option to use Barrier to englobe a character. Pretty sure it had some dangerously powerfull Defense/AP efficiency.

Transforming an enemy into a statue via Severe Transform is effectively an "unbreakable entangle". Except by the rules of transform. And is about as dangerous as any other absolute.

 

Extradimensional movement, usable against others

 

PZ7.jpg

I thought about similar stuff (send to the cornfield in particular). I found that Transfrom (into being on another plane) looked cleaner. But this might just be my generic disdain against any form of Movement, UAA.

It can trap kryptonians in a place where no sunlight reaches, effectively removing thier powers. Wich is somewhere around a severe transform.

 

APGII 39

 

"Freeze!": Time Stop (200 active pts); Limited Area (single target; -2). Total cost: 67 pts.

Nice catch on that.

I don't have it in my head right now, but I am pretty sure time stop also prevented the affect area/target from being affected negatively in any way.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have it in my head right now, but I am pretty sure time stop also prevented the affect area/target from being affected negatively in any way.

Attacks accumulated take effect when time resumes.

 

Limiting the area to only a single target makes Time Stop a cosmic coup de grace machine.

 

The victim of the single target Time Stop does not hurt others by being touched e.g. using a "frozen" damage shield.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The GM can include optional absolutes. Something like "almost everybody will be certainly killed by 20D6 Killing damage, so an 'instant kill' attack costs as much as 20D6 killing". He has to deal with all the issues that may arise from those decisions. There is a reason HERO has banned using Absolutes in the first place. Mostly because they are game design follies that cause ten times the issues they solve in the short run. And 100 times in the long run.

 

Well, if the GM has indicated that 20D6 killing is an instant kill (for argument's sake) then following the original rationale for transform - if you can kill something then you might as well be able to do something to it instead - the cost of 20D6 killing would also buy an unbreakable entangle.

 

Given that we do not know the game purpose of the OP it is difficult to proffer real possibilities but I would say that a major transform would also work as an unbreakable entangle (as far as game effect goes but not as game rules go).

 

Doc

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I thought about similar stuff (send to the cornfield in particular). I found that Transfrom (into being on another plane) looked cleaner. But this might just be my generic disdain against any form of Movement, UAA.

It can trap kryptonians in a place where no sunlight reaches, effectively removing thier powers. Wich is somewhere around a severe transform.

 

Or it's making use of some limitations/disadvantages that the Kryptonians used to save points.  "Only in presence of yellow sun radiation" is maybe a -1/4, depending on the campaign.

Link to post
Share on other sites

300 active points of Entangle could certainly create an Entangle that 99.5% of characters in the Champions Universe couldn't blast or break their way out of. Some might be able to teleport or desolidify etc out of it, but the OP specified "unbreakable". Throw on -2 of limitations and it's a moderately affordable 100 points.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we've throughly made it socially impossible for the OP to come back (although with nearly 5000 posts, he must have been around long enough to not take it personally). I would love to know what he was thinking or what it was for. Given the number of ways of getting out of a tangle other than damaging it, I can see how eliminating the "break it" option wouldn't automatically be broken, but I have no idea what effect one would be trying to emulate.

Link to post
Share on other sites

WELL DUH! How did I miss this? Only noticed due to discussion on another thread, but what about "takes no damage from attacks".

 

At the +1 level, "takes no damage from attacks" means "an Entangle cannot be attacked, damaged, or affected by outside attackers at all — only the victim can break free, and he can only apply his STR (or EGO, for Mental Paralysis Entangles) to break out." A reasonably common and obvious means of removing the entangle is also required. Examples noted are antidotes to a paralytic poison, counterspells for a "hold person" type spell, etc. This is referred to as a "caution sign" power, in some cases even a "stop sign".

 

Now, slap on a +1/4 "takes no damage from attacks" and make it also immune to physical attacks (now STR doesn't cut it either).

 

Big Stop Sign, but we all knew that. Our Heros now need to find and apply the means by which the entangle can be removed.

 

I'd be interested in whether this suits the OP's requirements, though. If we knew what he was looking for, it would be easier to assess how to find it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

300 active points of Entangle could certainly create an Entangle that 99.5% of characters in the Champions Universe couldn't blast or break their way out of. Some might be able to teleport or desolidify etc out of it, but the OP specified "unbreakable". Throw on -2 of limitations and it's a moderately affordable 100 points.

If we got those kinds of AP and RP to throw around, 6d6 Severe Transform into stone statue costs only 90 AP/RP and have an average body result of 21. With next to nobody having power defense.

 

WELL DUH! How did I miss this? Only noticed due to discussion on another thread, but what about "takes no damage from attacks".

 

At the +1 level, "takes no damage from attacks" means "an Entangle cannot be attacked, damaged, or affected by outside attackers at all — only the victim can break free, and he can only apply his STR (or EGO, for Mental Paralysis Entangles) to break out." A reasonably common and obvious means of removing the entangle is also required. Examples noted are antidotes to a paralytic poison, counterspells for a "hold person" type spell, etc. This is referred to as a "caution sign" power, in some cases even a "stop sign".

 

Now, slap on a +1/4 "takes no damage from attacks" and make it also immune to physical attacks (now STR doesn't cut it either).

 

Big Stop Sign, but we all knew that. Our Heros now need to find and apply the means by which the entangle can be removed.

I think you just re-inveted Transform into something unable to act, minus the defense the transform usually has (Power Defense/whatever you choose for NND).

Link to post
Share on other sites

If we got those kinds of AP and RP to throw around, 6d6 Severe Transform into stone statue costs only 90 AP/RP and have an average body result of 21. With next to nobody having power defense.

If you had those kinds of points to throw around, maybe some would be invested in power defense.

 

I think you just re-inveted Transform into something unable to act, minus the defense the transform usually has (Power Defense/whatever you choose for NND).

Any power can be recreated by Transform. Killing Attack? Live Target to Dead Target. Blast? Target to KO'd Target. Flash? Target to Blind Target.

 

To me, the more specific mechanic should be the first choice, so if we can achieve the desired immobility effect with Entangle, let's take that route. Seems like that +1 1/4 effectively creates an "NND Entangle".

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you had those kinds of points to throw around, maybe some would be invested in power defense.

 

 

Any power can be recreated by Transform. Killing Attack? Live Target to Dead Target. Blast? Target to KO'd Target. Flash? Target to Blind Target.

 

To me, the more specific mechanic should be the first choice, so if we can achieve the desired immobility effect with Entangle, let's take that route. Seems like that +1 1/4 effectively creates an "NND Entangle".

It specifically says you cannot transform someone into a dead someone.

 

Anyways, Christopher's complaint effectively was that you applied a "only available to X" and "immune to X" modifier on something. To which your response should be, "Duh, that's exactly what I said I just did, didn't you see the reference to Big Stop Sign?"

 

The rules disallow making things one's opponent can't defend against or escape, but if you add some other escape or defense avenue to it, it could be doable. In the case of entangle, there are plenty of ways to escape other than a damage effect (teleport, desolidification, contortionist), so the only real question is if these are reasonable in your campaign (or cases where you exclude these escapes as well).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...