Solving the Mook Problem: How to 'kill' Mobs

[Thia Halmades]

This has only taken me the better part of ten years to figure out, but I finally got to a point I was happy. I think. So I put it to you for your opinions. 

 

The 'mook problem' is what to do in a large combat where monsters (not heroes or key villains, but plain old monsters) have taken plenty of STUN, but insufficient BODY. You don't want people wandering around stabbing everything on the battlefield, but you don't want them getting back up. These may be setting specific, but I'm curious what y'all think. As a note, I already assume that all mobs only go to 0 BODY; my monsters are written as monsters, not heroes, so if they go to 0, they expire.

 

1) No DEF for Stunned out mobs (CON Stun or 0'd Out); the next attack will do fully rolled BODY. It will hurt. 

2) Attacks on Stunned out mobs are auto-crit. This will also really hurt, but may not be as effective.

3) All attacks on Stunned out mobs are counted as killing damage. So while you've been using Blast the whole time, suddenly it flips to counting as Killing instead of Blast, and you deal 2d6 RKA instead of 6d6 Blast, and your chances of dealing more BODY go up dramatically.

 

Now in the most technical sense, mathematically speaking, 2d6 RKA and 6d6 Blast are about the same, although you have a higher average (and mathematically higher top end) on 2d6 RKA for BODY, while both would keep the target in STUN land forever. Now, before we get to the whole who thinks what and why, a few notes:

 

1) Yep, I know that 0 STUN is often counted as dead. I'm not doing that, already considered it, STUN is too important in its own right

2) Yep, I know that keeping something stunned is often as good as dead, but I'm not worried about that, REC is a thing and monsters have it. They also have access to healing magic and a host of other noise to worry about.

3) Yep, I know that you may see this as 'adding a step,' but I'm not, I'm either changing one or removing another, but nothing is being added.

 

That out of the way, what do y'all think?

[L. Marcus]

Huh?

[Ndreare]

This looks like a copy and paste error.

Like when you prepare a message in Word and then copy it into a form.

[Christopher]

The posting issues were fixed.

 

 

Honestly that was discussed in detail in 6E2. In some settings (heroic) taking prisioners is problematic. That killing damage is much more of an option solves this mostly. Just not making them surrender as GM makes it less of an issue. If killing in a game is allowed, then killing damage should be allowed.

So you just consider all mooks to be death if they reach 0 stun or if they reach 0 body. Unless the heroes explicitly say they want one to be kept alive.

 

Or is this about applying a D&D style Coup de Grace to helpless foes?

If you use hit locations, an automatic hit to the head can be quite deadly, normal damage or not.

There is a rule that a target "out of combat" takes double stun damage. You might just expand that to include body.

[Thia Halmades]

So you just consider all mooks to be death if they reach 0 stun or if they reach 0 body. Unless the heroes explicitly say they want one to be kept alive.

 

 

 

I specifically locked this out as an option. I'm not asking for a citation, I'm asking if anyone has an opinion on the proposal as written. If you don't, that's cool too.

[massey]

First, I'd give mooks less in the way of resistant defense.  Make it so they (on average) will run out of Body before they run out of Stun.  That should solve the problem.

 

Second, remember that you're not playing D&D.  There's no reason for your players to have to kill every last mook.  If, a few hours later, a few orcs regain consciousness and limp away, it's not a big deal.  They've been defeated, the heroes have accomplished their goals, they're never gonna appear "on screen" again anyway.  Unless the players' goal is "exterminate orc village, leave nothing alive" then they shouldn't be stabbing downed opponents in the head.

 

With big "event" monsters, like a hydra or a beholder, it might make sense that the players sit there and hack it apart, just to make sure it's dead.  It's thematically appropriate.  The same thing with zombies and other undead.  But is it really that important to make sure that that castle guardsman never goes home?

[bigbywolfe]

When you say "Stunned out" are you trying to refer to Stunned, Knocked Out, or both?

[Thia Halmades]

It's not for D&D, it's for Persona, so in the canon of that game, stunning monsters is fairly normal, and having to finish them off equally normal. I'm trying to ensure that the party is awarded for good tactics and strategy, without making them roll dice into oblivion and without hand waving. Some shadows (enemies) have access to really powerful heals that can stand other things back up quickly, so yes, in this setting, killing them all (0 BODY) is important. 

 

Bigby: I'm referring to both in this case, since either condition can be remedied and the mobs get REC and will recover from being Stunned.

[Chris Goodwin]

This has only taken me the better part of ten years to figure out, but I finally got to a point I was happy. I think. So I put it to you for your opinions. 

 

The 'mook problem' is what to do in a large combat where monsters (not heroes or key villains, but plain old monsters) have taken plenty of STUN, but insufficient BODY. You don't want people wandering around stabbing everything on the battlefield, but you don't want them getting back up. These may be setting specific, but I'm curious what y'all think. As a note, I already assume that all mobs only go to 0 BODY; my monsters are written as monsters, not heroes, so if they go to 0, they expire.

A common rule for mooks is marking down how many hits it takes. One-hit, two-hit, etc.  (By mobs, you mean mobiles, right?  Computer game speak for mooks?)  

 

1) No DEF for Stunned out mobs (CON Stun or 0'd Out); the next attack will do fully rolled BODY. It will hurt.

 

By which you mean Stunned or Unconscious, correct?

 

2) Attacks on Stunned out mobs are auto-crit. This will also really hurt, but may not be as effective.

3) All attacks on Stunned out mobs are counted as killing damage. So while you've been using Blast the whole time, suddenly it flips to counting as Killing instead of Blast, and you deal 2d6 RKA instead of 6d6 Blast, and your chances of dealing more BODY go up dramatically.

 

You might want to differentiate some in this between Stunned and Unconscious. Stunning a character costs them an action and some DCV; this might be enough. To be a little more specific, some GMs use a "helpless character" rule for targets who are Unconscious; doing this for targets who are Stunned might be a bit much, because they're not generally considered completely helpless. (Helpless characters: you can automatically kill them after combat is done, if you want.)

 

Now in the most technical sense, mathematically speaking, 2d6 RKA and 6d6 Blast are about the same, although you have a higher average (and mathematically higher top end) on 2d6 RKA for BODY, while both would keep the target in STUN land forever. Now, before we get to the whole who thinks what and why, a few notes:

 

1) Yep, I know that 0 STUN is often counted as dead. I'm not doing that, already considered it, STUN is too important in its own right

2) Yep, I know that keeping something stunned is often as good as dead, but I'm not worried about that, REC is a thing and monsters have it. They also have access to healing magic and a host of other noise to worry about.

3) Yep, I know that you may see this as 'adding a step,' but I'm not, I'm either changing one or removing another, but nothing is being added.

 

That out of the way, what do y'all think?

 

0 STUN usually means "out of the fight," not necessarily dead. The most common rule I've seen, especially for faceless, nameless hordes (besides the "how many hits" rule and the "helpless characters" rule) is that once they're unconscious the GM stops checking them for recovery. This is good idea for a couple of reasons: bookkeeping (do you really want to keep track of STUN totals and REC for a bunch of nameless mooks?) and making sure that when they go down they stay down, so you don't have PCs going around pounding on unconscious targets (to drop them further into negative STUN).  Which they will do, if the alternative is that they get up and are back in the fight.  

 

So, let me ask a couple of questions in return:

• What do you want to see PCs doing to unconscious mooks?  
• Do you really want to keep track of the STUN totals of every mook?  

 

[Hugh Neilson]

STUN usually means "out of the fight," not necessarily dead. The most common rule I've seen, especially for faceless, nameless hordes (besides the "how many hits" rule and the "helpless characters" rule) is that once they're unconscious the GM stops checking them for recovery. This is good idea for a couple of reasons: bookkeeping (do you really want to keep track of STUN totals and REC for a bunch of nameless mooks?) and making sure that when they go down they stay down, so you don't have PCs going around pounding on unconscious targets (to drop them further into negative STUN).  Which they will do, if the alternative is that they get up and are back in the fight.

One issue that does not get considered enough is that 0 to -10TUN isn't "knocked over and snoozing"

 

If a character is only barely Knocked Out (down to -10 STUN), he’s not completely unconscious — in fact, it’s more like he’s deeply Stunned. Depending upon the character and the nature of the attack, he may even be on his feet, wobbly but still standing, as he tries to shake off the effects of the attack. He’s dimly aware of what’s going on around him, but is too woozy and dazed to take any action or maintain any power. He can make a PER Roll to perceive something really important, but otherwise he cannot interact with the world. He can’t move, Dodge, take any Actions, or do anything but take Recoveries.

As he IS KO'd, his CV is 0, and he takes double stun from any attack. On that basis, he's still a standing target, and one more hit should mean he recovers no more often than once per turn. So he should not recover and rejoin the fight any time soon.

 

Even for non-mooks, I also normally have them take a look around if they wake up. If the cause looks lost, why rejoin the fight? Slinking away may mean living to fight another day.

 

The "slam them so they stay down" mindset can be eroded a lot with those two simple issues - when they fall, they are typically out of the fight, and even if they recover, they may not rejoin it. Applying an "all mooks slink away on recovery" policy works pretty well. For that matter, if he's hit once, stunned and another hit will KO him, maybe he runs now.

[Christopher R Taylor]

One issue that does not get considered enough is that 0 to -10TUN isn't "knocked over and snoozing"

Yeah, its "staggered, on the ground, looking for your mouthpiece."  You're out of the fight but not totally out yet.

 

Here's how I handle it:

1) Non important bad guys have x hits they take before they go down, no matter how hard the hit.  If you hit A_Lame_Goblin_001 2 times, he is out of the fight. Even if the damage is low.

2) When a mook goes down, they stay down.  They're out of the fight, gone.  Done for.  Dead, if that's the game you're running.

3) Try to make fights less about mowing through hordes of guys and more about story until you get to the big boss.  Think more in terms of a superhero story than a fantasy dungeon crawl.

[Alverant]

I do something that I think is easier. Minions have 3 HP

A bad damage roll does 1 HP

A fair damage roll does 2 HP

A good damage roll does 3 HP

A great damage roll does 4 HP

When a minion is reduced to 0 HP they're out, if they're negative they're out in a spectacular/dramatic way (flying out through a window, do a double back flip before crashing, falls over something, head explodes (killing attacks only), does a Wilhelm Scream)

They don't recover HP and I don't worry about END or being too specific in what qualifies as a bad/fair/good/great roll. That way if the PCs are doing badly I can adjust and rate the damage higher so they can finish off the minions.

 

Other enemies are treated normally, minions are just meant to be a distraction and show how powerful the hero is.

[Markdoc]

I'm on the side of "never needed a rule for this". It's relatively rare for a mook to be KO'ed without taking *any* BOD, so in general, if they go down, and get enough recovery to become mobile again (and that's not actually that common in my experience - at heroic levels, most fights are quite short) then they are "walking wounded". So depending on circumstances, they will surrender, stumble away or play dead.

 

After all, they're mooks, not heroes. They're only fighting for the bad guys because they've been forced, or their family has always served the Lords of X, or to pay for their wife's heart operation, or whatever.

 

Once the players learn that a full-clear is not necessary for victory, they'll spend less time going around and gakking the survivors, which, to be honest, just doesn't feel that heroic. I usually don't have mooks fight to the death either. Sentient beings usually break and run (or at least retreat), once it's plain that they are taking a beating.

 

There are exceptions and that's fine. Members of the Relentless Cult of the Badass might fight to the death, and plaguebearers might need to be 100% killed off to ensure the plague is contained but that's part of their shtick. And really, having some mooks which are a bit scarier (because they are a threat unless definitively killed) but which are not terribly powerful (because after all, they're still mooks) is a useful GM tool.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Going back to the original post

 

The 'mook problem' is what to do in a large combat where monsters (not heroes or key villains, but plain old monsters) have taken plenty of STUN, but insufficient BODY.

6e added a new tool to the toolbox which I think holds the potential to up the BOD damage relative to STUN. I'm going to assume a Heroic baseline, and assume that the heroes will do around 8 DCs, and have defenses in the range of 50 (5 resistant), the top of the guideline on 6eV1p35. We'll assume the mooks are in the Competent Normal range, and suggest they have 8 defenses (4 resistant), so again top of the line.

 

Normal attacks are averaging 8 BOD, so they get nothing past defenses (a bit on a good roll), while taking about 20 STUN. Meanwhile a 2 1/2d6 KA averages 9, 5 past rDEF. First off, the KA seems like it will get a lot of BOD through, doesn't it? 5 BOD and 10 STUN past defenses on an average roll? So is this actually a problem? Presumably it is, as Thia is having the problem. Hit locations will bump up the STUN and not the BOD, so that may be part of it.

 

Anyway, the 6e tool

 

Damage Negation. What if we take away 6 PD and ED (and 3 rPD and rED) from the mooks, and give them 2 DC's of Damage Negation instead? The same 8d6 attack drops to 6d6, and passes 19 STUN (not much change) past defenses. But it does 4 BOD on that average roll. Meanwhile, the KA is getting 6 BOD past defenses on an average roll, and 12 STUN (more if we're using hit locations).

 

I'm not sure how much impact this will have - way more if there are normal attacks in play. But shifting from Defenses to Damage Negation is a pretty effective means of letting normal damage attacks, in particular, inflict BOD, not just STUN, in the typical game's DC to Defense ratio.

[bluesguy]

You are way over thinking this problem.  Here is how I have handled cannon fodder for years:

 

1.  If the only combat during that part of the story is with the cannon fodder (breach the gates, get past the patrol on the way to the master villain, etc) then I do the following

• OCV/DCV/PD/ED/Stun/Body all lower than the PC.  Depending on the cannon fodder they might be way lower
• If the cannon fodder gets to 0 Stun or Body they are incapacitated and we actually remove their figure from the board.  This so the players know that those NPCs are no longer a threat and can be ignored.

2.  If the combat involves master villain and his cannon fodder then:

• OCV/DCV/PD/ED/Stun/Body all lower than the PC.  Depending on the cannon fodder they might be way lower
• One or Two good hits by the PC (something that gets 10 to 25% of the cannon fodder's Stun or Body) makes that NPC incapacitated.

 

Shameless Plug:  In Hero Combat Manager I have implemented both of these options.  Basically there is a one-hit wonder rules engine.  NPCs identified as a one-hit wonder will go down as described in scenario 2.  Also when the GM decides to accept the damage to character they can accept that the character is incapacitated or dead or whatever the regular outcome is.

 

I should note that Sunday I ran a Champions game with 3 players.  They fought one mid-level villain and 15 minions.  The minions were pretty tough and did land some damaging hits on the players.  I was operating on the #1 scenario as above.

[Sean Waters]

Thia!

 

What sort of game is it?  Specifically which (if any) optional rules are you using: if you use hit locations and sectional armour, and disabling, well, even the toughest little monster is going down on a good roll for damage, especially if you use a '3 to hit is maximum damage' critical system (which I do not advocate, personally, but...)

 

One real option though, if this is a perceived problem in your games, is just to re-design the monsters.

 

Give them less resistant defence and lower Body, so they die rather than get stunned.  Or higher Body: that way they are taking Body damage and if you use the bleeding rules you don't actually have to go and kill them afterwards, they will almost certainly bleed out of their own devices.  You can also build their non-resistant defences so that they do not stop Body damage, allowing you to beat someone to death with a baton, which is certainly possible, or just build all weapons, even 'blunt' ones as killing attacks.

 

I'm afraid my solution to most problems these days goes back to character and opponent design.  I know that some people do not like having different rules for mooks, even different design rules, but if you don't it will end up with your characters having to go round slitting throats.

[Sean Waters]

Also I don't think you are overthinking it, at least I don't think you are, and even if it turns out we are both wrong, or that some people think we are, what's wrong with overthinking?  This is a discussion board!

 

(Sorry, I've been accused of OTing once or twice myself over the years and it always gets my hackles up).

[NuSoardGraphite]

I have always run that unimportant npcs, monsters etc dont get a recovery after they hit 0 stun. And if they hit 0 body, they are out of the fight as well. Unimportant ruffians are no longer a threat if they take an Impairing wound, and are incapacitated or killed if they take a disabling wound.

[Altair]

I've been running mooks more in accordance with Feng Shui or Savage worlds. I haven't done full detail modeling on every gun-toting thug in a supers romp, and I don't track details for them either. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but I find no value in those details.

 

So, most mooks can take a 1 solid hit. Maybe heavily armored mooks require a good hit, or two decent hits. Once they're down, they're down. People can deal with them post-combat, but they're not in the fight anymore.

 

Not saying it's the One True Way or anything, but that's how I deal with said "mook problem."

[Ninja-Bear]

I keep bouncing around the idea of having one character sheet and it having "mook powers" to represent the mob. Something akin to how a swarm of bees is reprensented as a RKA and not as individual bees. Or maybe better yet-a Hydra might be a better example.

[Doc Democracy]

I am with ninja and kinda thought this was what Thia was suggesting though it was not explicitly stated.

 

I am more and more inclined to stat a mob of moods as a single monster with automaton and the physical limitation that normal attacks are considered as equivalent DC killing attacks. I also build the mob with growth which is always on but diminishes as BODY is taken.

 

The game effect is that as heroes deal body, the mob diminishes. It is never stunned but it might make a decision to run away if sufficient PRE attack is made. I can relate the numbers of moods dropping out of the fight by the BODY being taken.

 

The mob monster never recovers but can be healed (statted as a regeneration that occurs when reinforcements sent).

 

That is the way I try to do this in most systems where the mechanics are friendly. :-)

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Doc do you use the speed to represent groups of agents holding and attacking?

[Altair]

I highly recommend that people check out Fantasy Flight's Star Wars game for how they handle minion groups. 

 

Basically, the group functions a lot like a single character, and as minions get taken out, the effectiveness of the group is diminished. It's really elegant there; I feel like it might be a giant pain to implement in Hero, but I could be wrong.

[Doc Democracy]

Doc do you use the speed to represent groups of agents holding and attacking?

I simply decide how often I want the mob to attack in a round. Often I reduce the damage it does as it loses body to reflect the loss of units coordinating their attacks. SPD will also decline as it loses BODY.

 

:-)

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

I highly recommend that people check out Fantasy Flight's Star Wars game for how they handle minion groups. 

 

Basically, the group functions a lot like a single character, and as minions get taken out, the effectiveness of the group is diminished. It's really elegant there; I feel like it might be a giant pain to implement in Hero, but I could be wrong.

Is that not what I was just describing? :-D