So, I finally got European Enemies. . .

[Opale]

 

From what Opale says, a French hero is not a private citizen who appropriates social/state functions such as fighting crime. Certainly, not someone who dresses up to stand out and advertise that they are a law unto themselves. Would a super-powered policeman – state sanctioned, identity publicly known, operating with due process and oversight  – be more appropriate for French sensibilities?

 

 

Does this sound plausible?

 

Dean Shomshak

 

To quote you and comment Lord Liaden post, Ithink there is a need to bend the french attitude a bit so it fit in the Champions Universe.

 

For instance, french government is very conservative and usually acts with 15-30 years of delay, compared to other more dynamic government like USA.

 

A concerned citizen that might be empowered, and motivated enough to fight the crime, would be activetly searched by the authority, to be jailed or put under control.

And indeed, it would be for national security. I should add that such a wanabee hero would have more chance to stay free if he's either totally discreet, but satelitte observation and gossips makes it hasardous, or highly mediatized, in which case the DCRI (secret services) couldn't make him disappear.

 

I think there would be political pressure and lots of attempts to make those hero surrender to authority control.

Again, a hero in France would either be working under heavy government control or be an outcast. And I could only guess that any other foreign hero would have to be very careful when entering France territory, or risk custody. Our politics people are very much control freak, and first class liars. Afterall, France is known for its diplomacy

 

So yes accepted supers would be like superpowered policemen. And YES, there would be a French official superteam, because it's strategically important.

 

As for the Cosmonaut character, I think she'd have to settle herself as an alien DIPLOMAT in order to be able to live quietly in France.

 

Photonik and Mikros comics described with accuracy how the french government could - even in actual days - force people to work with them by threat and blackmail on there beloved ones.

I might have a pessimistic vision about my own country, but french people are easy to get angry and declare heroes as scapegoats for all kind of problems.

Laws are very complex in France, and you don't pay an amend to get out of a judgment like in USA !

 

Now, when I overlook the concepts of french heroes, I think they should be the image of whatever things my country do. USA use the F-16 aircraft, we use the Rafale. You have Abrams tanks, we have the Leclerc Char, you have M-16 rifle, we use the FAMAS.

Our tools are heavily french branded, our engineer are brillant and able to do technological wonders.

If you study the difference between the different army items I took as an example, you will see the main difference are :

French stuff is usually a bit better designed, more fragile , expensive, and so technologically advanced than a common soldier can't use it at it full capacities.

Did you know most flying drones design come from the Rafale ? Did you know that the Leclerc char can shoot an obus perpendicularly to its course while running ? and so on...

 

So sum it up, I think french heroes should have those traits compared to other :

- romantic, tragedical or dark (but not too dark) background and history

- controlled by government or outcast like Arsène Lupin

- less flamboyant style than american heroes

- prolly dedicated to oppose European threats like Eurostar for example, which would be deeply studied by our tactic experts to stop them. For example, such official heroes could be tought Esperanto aswell..

- France is a small country, with powerful emotions of resistance and revolution sleeping in. So such heroes could be either trigger for such a liberation to happen, or a way to control people growing anger.

- finally, French heroes would be like any manufactured goods : too powerful for their own good or unable to use their might without a risk for the user.

 

And now a word about french villains.

 

I think France would be a very big tank of supervillains, because of the selfish way people think here. The dicton says : "Give power to someone, and you'll know his true self"

 

And a small picture about the Mikronik team

 

 

Opale, theorizing on French supers

[Lord Liaden]

Fascinating insights, thank you Opale.

 

I don't think the authors of the Champions source books were entirely unaware of these elements of the French national character. For example, French supers registration laws are described as among the most stringent in Europe outside of Russia (although Russia doesn't pursue unregistered supers as vigorously), to the point that some independent superheroes have emigrated from France to avoid them.

[The Arc]

Fascinating insights, thank you Opale.

 

I don't think the authors of the Champions source books were entirely unaware of these elements of the French national character. For example, French supers registration laws are described as among the most stringent in Europe outside of Russia (although Russia doesn't pursue unregistered supers as vigorously), to the point that some independent superheroes have emigrated from France to avoid them.

 

Are you saying Gerard Depardu is a superhuman?  

[assault]

Jules Verne.

[assault]

A couple of thoughts about what Opale has said.

 

First of all, modern surveillance is a modern phenomenon. Suggesting that a French superhero couldn't operate because of it is like saying an American superhero couldn't exist because of it. Perhaps "true" in a certain sense, but not useful.

 

France is not a "small country". It is still a world class busybody, especially in Africa. It still even has colonies. A French superhero who accepts that is quite likely to be operating around the world. (See French Polynesia, for starters.)

 

Paris, Marseille, and others are world class cities that have crime issues quite as serious as anywhere else. Room for crime fighters? Absolutely.

 

Yes, it's true that superhero comics originated in the US, and have big cultural footprints stamped all over them. Nonetheless, they are not unknown elsewhere. Perhaps irrelevantly, I own a copy of a German translation of a Legion of Superheroes comic that I bought in Germany in the mid-70s. I studied German at school, rather than French, to my lasting regret. I'm pretty sure that there are comparable French translations, and it doesn't take much to convert characters you read when you are young to local characters that you can identify with. Big Popular Movies make it easier.

 

Finally, another superhero RPG had a supplement dedicated specifically to France. I'm not sure if "SuperFrance" is still available, but it was precisely the kind of thing we need. And with a French author, naturally. There used to be a couple of interesting free previews available. You might still be able to find them with enough Googling.

 

Triva: an old friend of mine has just been appointed head honcho of Greenpeace in New Zealand.  *cough* Rainbow Warrior *cough*
 

[Opale]

Fascinating insights, thank you Opale.

 

I don't think the authors of the Champions source books were entirely unaware of these elements of the French national character. For example, French supers registration laws are described as among the most stringent in Europe outside of Russia (although Russia doesn't pursue unregistered supers as vigorously), to the point that some independent superheroes have emigrated from France to avoid them.

 

not owning the book, I didn't know about those super registration laws; But YES ! A thousand times yes, it's totally what the government would enforce here. The only thing our government is stil lafraid of, is from the french people itself, and not enough anymore to most people opinion. Our democracy is in crisis, but we have a long tradition of revolution and onslaught on misvbehaving leading classes - only to have them replaced by other as corrupted leading classes.

History is a loop some would say.

 

@assault : "small country" was about area. france is smaller in surface than some USA states. We compensate this limited size with a strategic importance in all kind of fields.

[薔薇語]

@assault : "small country" was about area. france is smaller in surface than some USA states. We compensate this limited size with a strategic importance in all kind of fields.

 

It is smaller in size than 2 US states. It is bigger than 48 states. Significantly bigger than a LOT of states. Plus the US, China, Canada, and Russia are real outliers  in size so it seems inappropriate to use them as bench marks. 

 

Foreign Orchid. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Opale what do you think of Feur de Lis from Watchers of the Dragon?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do think a Champions of La Belle France would be a very interesting supplement, indeed.  All the major countries of the world - Russia, China, Germany, Saudi Arabia, etc should get one.

[Lord Liaden]

not owning the book, I didn't know about those super registration laws; But YES ! A thousand times yes, it's totally what the government would enforce here. The only thing our government is stil lafraid of, is from the french people itself, and not enough anymore to most people opinion. Our democracy is in crisis, but we have a long tradition of revolution and onslaught on misvbehaving leading classes - only to have them replaced by other as corrupted leading classes.

History is a loop some would say.

 

 

Champions Worldwide goes into a fair amount of detail not only on the superheroes and villains of countries around the world, but the legal and social attitudes toward superhumans in those countries. The description of the European Union in CW points out that attempts to harmonize EU members' policies on superhuman registration, or treaties that classify and regulate the use of superhumans in military or police forces, have been highly contentious.

 

"Most nations in Europe require some type of official registration for superhumans, though the strictness, onerousness, and enforcement of such laws vary widely. France maintains the strictest registration laws in Europe:  superhumans must fully reveal their identities and powers and register with the Bureau of Superhuman Activity. Failure to register within a month of manifestation of superhuman abilities (the definition of which itself remains the subject of much debate within French jurisprudence) is a major felony with mandatory fines and prison sentences, though in practice France usually only prosecutes this crime in full alongside other crimes -- most violaters can get any charges dismissed simply by complying with the law. France's policies have led to a small but significant number of superhumans leaving the country, most notably the hero Incendie ("Blaze"), who moved to Quebec in 2002 rather than reveal his identity."  (Champions Worldwide p. 6)

[Opale]

Opale what do you think of Feur de Lis from Watchers of the Dragon?

 

I don't know this character Ô fluffy plushy in black pajama

[DShomshak]

In my own new setting, supers first appeared in 2000 so people are still getting used to them; there has been less cultural divergence and no "baggage" from WW2, pro or con.

 

Germany *still* won't have a State Super Team, though.

 

How do contemporary Europeans feel about the EU?

 

(In my own campaign, the EU has... not done well with superheroes. There was a "Euroforce" hero team, but its bureaucratic oversight was so slow and clumsy it couldn't do anything unless the members deliberately broke their own rules. It fell apart in 2008 due to funding disputes caused by the financial crisis. Pretty much, half the EU said "Let Germany pay for it" and the Germans said, "Not alone, we aren't." Acrimony followed.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Opale]

Ok, interesting ideas Mister Shomshak.

 

Here is my OWN opinion about Europe as it's build nowadays. And it aknowledge your ideas about how uneffective an Euro Super Team would be.

 

In my own analyzis, Europe was made to be build with 6 first countries. And it would have worked well...

But under USA pressure, that saw that coalition as a dangerous rival in economics, they manipulated the European countries and governement to encourage them to build up a larger - TOO MUCH larger - Europe, making it impossible to lead.

Look : right now it a 27 countries coalition, with laws written by a parlement of corrupted bureaucrats, who vote taxes they don't even pay, and lead by a president that is even not elected!

 

I work all day in human mangement and it's very hard to get 6 different teams to agree on common terms of a project, as they have to sacrifice things for a common purpose. So it's mpossible to do so with 27 countries.

Just my two cents. USA won this battle.

 

And the other hand, I think Europe, or maybe each country would develop a national superteam, knowing that villains like Eurostar or Gravitar are around. 

We European, have much less freedom in our choices than US people, and a very heavy bureaucracy, and lots of corrupted politics especially on latin countries.

 

In reaction to Germany comment  in your campaign setting, I could only guess France reaction would be :

- Try to persuade Germany of the necessity of a common France-Germany joined effort to fund a Super Team

- Create a project 'the New Maginot Line" to maybe stop super threats, even if it cost alot, and deepens France debts, maybe by getting dark money from the Arabic countries like Qatar...

- Enforce a stronger control of the registration law, to force empowered people to serve the nation and consider them as "living weapons"

- Create a project of very brilliant, but with limited ressources, including engineers to arm the nation against villains; and prolly get the so called technology stolen or unusable by most people

- try to involve aliens and outsiders with powers in various alliances

 

Opale - too much politics ruins even the best minds

[Armitage]

I heartily recommend our forum colleague and Hero author Michael "Susano" Surbrook's very thoughtful "debugging" of European Enemies, on his splendid website, "Surbrook's Stuff": http://surbrook.devermore.net/revisedhero/herorev.html . He updated the characters to Fifth Edition, corrected the many math and system design issues in the write-ups, and discusses the practical and conceptual problems with the characters. Quite useful if you're thinking of ever using any of them. (And I agree with you and Michael that they aren't all stinkers. Just most of them.)

 

 

While I enjoy and appreciate his work updating and corrrecting these characters, I do disagree with his decision to not give many of these characters Distinctive Features based on the fact that Halfjack, in the 5e Viper sourcebook, doesn't have that Disadvantage. 

 

"Removed Silver Hyena's Distinctive Features. If Halfjack (VIPER) doesn't get Distinctive Features, then Silver Hyena sure doesn't."

 

In the same book, Oculon has Distinctive Features-Alien Eyes and Freon has Distinctive Features-Low Body Temperature, so Halfjack lacking that Disadvantage was clearly an editorial oversight.

[Doc Democracy]

In my own new setting, supers first appeared in 2000 so people are still getting used to them; there has been less cultural divergence and no "baggage" from WW2, pro or con.

 

Germany *still* won't have a State Super Team, though.

 

How do contemporary Europeans feel about the EU?

 

(In my own campaign, the EU has... not done well with superheroes. There was a "Euroforce" hero team, but its bureaucratic oversight was so slow and clumsy it couldn't do anything unless the members deliberately broke their own rules. It fell apart in 2008 due to funding disputes caused by the financial crisis. Pretty much, half the EU said "Let Germany pay for it" and the Germans said, "Not alone, we aren't." Acrimony followed.)

 

Dean Shomshak

 

That does not ring true to me.  Not the bureaucracy but the politics and financing.

 

There would be no individual financing - or it would be a buy-in project, the more you pay in the more influence you have on how it is used.

 

I would see that every country would buy in, even to the detriment of their involvement in other projects.  How much more prestigious could it be to have your national hero on the EuroForce??  Noone would want to be left out of the project, regardless of costs.  But because everyone is involved,nothing would be decided simply and the deployment of the force difficult except for matters of humanitarian need.

 

Another thing you need to factor in is that the UK and France are the hawks in the EU, it is these governments that will be at the forefront of any desire to get involved militarily.

 

Doc

[Lord Liaden]

And indeed, in the CU the UK and France are the two European states who maintain official government superteams. In the UK it's the New Knights of the Round Table. France's team is formally designated "the Sixteenth Bureau," but they and most other French people refer to it as "the Vanguard."

 

But Doc Democracy, I think you may be giving the politicians a bit too much credit.   The way Champions Worldwide describes attempts to build a team to protect all of Europe, sounds like an extrapolation from the way the various members of the real European Union interact over other issues:

 

"...there have been several proposals for a trans-European superteam under the command of the European Union, perhaps made up of "donated" superhumans from member countries interested in participating. So far none of these proposals has gone beyond the talking stage. Some officials have expressed concern that the superhumans representing those countries would be less powerful (since a nation wouldn't want to give up its best supers), which would make it too likely the team would fail or suffer disaster when facing powerful opponents like Eurostar. On the other hand, a nation might send an exceptionally powerful hero who'd end up dominating the team. Furthermore, no one has yet suggested a satisfactory agency within the EU to administer such a team." (CW p. 7)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah in my Champions setting a European supergroup formed to try to get the continent to unite under one flag, but all they managed to do is get the EU set up.  They formed in the 80s so they are a bit long in the tooth these days (other than Mithril in the magical armor, who is ageless).

 

NATO formed a military superhero group with individual countries donating forces, but it was never very successful due to infighting over policy, leadership, and funding.

[Lord Liaden]

Yep, a superteam formed by committee...

[Doc Democracy]

And indeed, in the CU the UK and France are the two European states who maintain official government superteams. In the UK it's the New Knights of the Round Table. France's team is formally designated "the Sixteenth Bureau," but they and most other French people refer to it as "the Vanguard."

 

But Doc Democracy, I think you may be giving the politicians a bit too much credit.   The way Champions Worldwide describes attempts to build a team to protect all of Europe, sounds like an extrapolation from the way the various members of the real European Union interact over other issues:

 

"...there have been several proposals for a trans-European superteam under the command of the European Union, perhaps made up of "donated" superhumans from member countries interested in participating. So far none of these proposals has gone beyond the talking stage. Some officials have expressed concern that the superhumans representing those countries would be less powerful (since a nation wouldn't want to give up its best supers), which would make it too likely the team would fail or suffer disaster when facing powerful opponents like Eurostar. On the other hand, a nation might send an exceptionally powerful hero who'd end up dominating the team. Furthermore, no one has yet suggested a satisfactory agency within the EU to administer such a team." (CW p. 7)

 

I think in this situation, where the European Parliament perhaps has not commandeered some of the central budget to establish a supergroup (where there would be less national wrangling as it would not necessarily involve the Council of Ministers) I can see them moving to the same kind of operation as the European Space Agency.

 

The ESA is kind of a subsidiary of EU policy and operates on a buy-in style operation.  When you ante up, you get membership in the organisation and some of the investment benefits (laboratories etc) are based in your country and you get some strategic say in future policy development.  The operation is run for EU-wide benefit but with a much smaller guiding group.  

 

This would not need more than a few nations to club together and get agreement from the Parliament about authority.  Semi-autonomous.

 

I can see both France and the UK bringing in a few of the other nations such as Italy, Greece, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark & Finland - all of whom would pay lower subs and have lesser influence but utilising some of the territorial or science base of each to form a small group that would fund EuroForce.  I would then expect to see other states such as Germany, Spain, Portugal and others bidding to get involved to ensure that their hero-types had a chance to get on board...

 

Much more likely to happen than the more bureaucratic establishment of an official force as part of Brussels...

 

Doc

[CaptnStrawberry]

I would hope a European supergroup would skip the bureaucracy altogether and rely on private funding.  Silvain Baudet (Autour) from Champions Worldwide sounds like he could be an independently wealthy Tony Stark type.  Base them in Monaco or something!

[IndianaJoe3]

I would hope a European supergroup would skip the bureaucracy altogether and rely on private funding.  Silvain Baudet (Autour) from Champions Worldwide sounds like he could be an independently wealthy Tony Stark type.  Base them in Monaco or something!

 

I had a similar idea, but was wondering if that sort of, "Screw the bureaucracy, let's do this!" mentality might be more of an American stereotype.

[Lord Liaden]

For anyone interested in an example of a pan-European superhero team, I would like to recommend the excellent EuroGuard, by our own Bill Keyes and Denver Mason, in Digital Hero #31: http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/337-digital-hero-31/

[Doc Democracy]

I had a similar idea, but was wondering if that sort of, "Screw the bureaucracy, let's do this!" mentality might be more of an American stereotype.

 

Well, unlike the Avengers who might have to deal with one Federal Government regarding their legitimacy, any Euro group would have to consider over 20 different countries, languages and legal jurisdictions.  I would imagine there would be far more problems for a group, accepted as legitimate and operating out of France or Germany, being seen as legitimate in the UK, Spain and Italy than a group, accepted as legitimate and operating out of New York, being seen as legitimate in San Francisco.

 

I think it would depend on the style of the campaign.  A four colour campaign is not going to get stuck on this kind of thing.  They would be heroes goddammit and doing their thing.  Concerns would creep in as the campaign tone veered down towards an iron age style where legislation rules and spandex is out...

 

 

Doc

[pinecone]

When I messed with this I had a Trans European Super group pre date the EU. It was originally formed for the Euro version of a Super prison. For all those Natzi Ubers.

 

So when the EU got formed it absorbed an already existing organisation. That helped limit the amount of political wrangling.

[DShomshak]

I hadn't thought of the ESA as a model, and it seems to get things done. Thanks, Doc D!

 

I admit, my view of the EU may be prejudiced by media filtering. When does one ever read a news story about "Government does a task well; constituents pronounce themselves pleased"?

 

One thing I've established for my campaign setting is the Capella Project, meant to reverse-engineer technology from a wrecked alien spaceship, that went horribly wrong through bureaucratic wrangling and security-obsessed micro-management. The only super-tech to result from the Project came from brilliant scientists driven over the edge by sheer frustration into becoming supervillains. While there's some inspiration from stories about the apparently-insane management of the RL  ITER project to build a test fusion reactor, I'm also inspired by the late Richard Feynman's stories about security lunacy he encountered in the Manhattan Project. When people get obsessed with security because a project is so important, sometimes they lose their minds and do rather counterproductive things. Especially, things that irritate scientists who are used to a free flow of information with their colleagues. So the Capella Project is satire, but not uniquely about EU management.

 

Dean Shomshak