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Hyper-Man

Garrotte Damage

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This is an indirect follow up to a recent Rules Forum topic that some might find enlightening.

 

from: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/1207-strangulation/?hl=garrotte

Strangulation
Not a pretty topic, I know, but one that sometimes plays a significant role in some RPG genres. Two questions: 1. In TUMA, p. 172, a strangling garrotte does (3d6) and has a limitation "must be aimed at head". If it hits, does the 2x normal damage apply for hit locations 3-5, or is the hit location considered to be already factored into the (3d6) damage (which is not too shabby for a str min of 4)? 2. How does "good" old-fashioned non-martial arts manual strangulation work? Is it basically just a grab-and-squeeze to locations 3-5, maybe with a few extra touches (e.g., no-recoveries as per holding one's breath and no vocalization as per martial-arts choke hold)?

1. The Limitation indicates you have to aim for the Head and take the appropriate OCV penalty. If you hit, you get the damage bonus. 2. Just apply a Grab to Hit Location 5 and then invoke the drowning rules. That takes time, but then again, so does strangulatin' someone. ;)

 

 

Comments welcome.

 

HM :)

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Another FYI post.

 

The Martial Maneuvers Choke Hold and Killing Strike do NOT stack damage with any weapon the character may be armed with regardless of any Weapon Element. 

 

examples:

4 Choke Hold:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 2d6 NND
4 Killing Strike:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, HKA 1 1/2d6 (from a character with a 15 STR)

 

Having the Weapon Element for a Knife or Garrote just means the the maneuvers can be used while holding those weapons.  If a character wants to actually use the weapons instead of those specialized Martial Maneuvers then the character would need to use different maneuvers to do so.

 

Here are some Martial Maneuver examples:

3 Martial Grab:  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 25 STR for holding on
5 Stab (Offensive Strike):  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon +4 DC Strike (Knifefighting)

 

The Martial Grab would need to target the Head to be useful with a Strangling Garrotte.

 

examples:

10 Strangling Garrotte:  HA +3d6, Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (rigid Resistant PD on the neck or not needing to breathe; All Or Nothing; +1) (45 Active Points); Conditional Power Must Be Aimed At Head (-1), IAF (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Limited Power Must Follow Grab (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 5 (-1/4)        
4d6 NND with STR 15 before applying the 2x Normal Damage modifier for targeting Hit Locations 3-5

 

7 Switchblade Knife: HKA 1/2d6 (1d6+1 w/15 STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (15 Active Points); IAF (Switchblade; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 4 (-1/4), Required Hands One-Handed (-0)        
1d6+1K with 15 STR, 2 1/2d6K with Martial Stab Maneuver

 

A Garrotte in skilled hands can be far more effective than a Choke Hold* but requires more skill to use as it needs to be 'looped' around a target's head.  As a result, its use is typically limited to situations of Surprise to halve the -8 OCV penalty.

 

*A Choke Hold (Standard or Martial) is primarily doing damage via suffocation. A Garrotte is also cutting off blood supply to the Head.  A Martial Choke Hold combined with additional Martial Damage Classes is also cutting off blood supply via better technique with the Maneuver.

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I never really liked how killing strike doesn't add to damage but normal damage does. I've messed with allowing it. Plus NND, you can't add strength however a hand attack with NND you can. I feel that is inconsistent too.

 

Well, to be fair the current iteration of the Martial Arts rules (first introduced in the 3e days of Danger International If I recall correctly) are constructed differently than anything else in HERO.  Their closest cousin would be Talents.  But that comparison only holds up if Talents are thought of as unique abilities that can't be reconstructed via the Power & Skill systems (which they can and should be).  The current HERO System Martial Arts maneuvers are ,for the most part (I'm looking at you Flying Dodge), an 'Everyman' set of abilities modeled on real world evidence of their effectiveness.  As such their rules are very internally consistent and have held up for basically 3 editions of the game quite well.  Maybe they could be tweeked here and there but would it be worth it?  Is there anything really broken that is worth risking the ire of fandom like decoupling figured characteristics did?

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Based on Steve's answers to my questions, Choke Hold shouldn't have had a weapon element associated with it. That was where my confusion came from. If you pay points, you should be getting some benefit from them, and in the case of garrote and Choke Hold, you actually don't. The maneuver is one of those that is meant to be barehanded only, despite what the martial arts book says.

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Based on Steve's answers to my questions, Choke Hold shouldn't have had a weapon element associated with it. That was where my confusion came from. If you pay points, you should be getting some benefit from them, and in the case of garrote and Choke Hold, you actually don't. The maneuver is one of those that is meant to be barehanded only, despite what the martial arts book says.

I think that there was a weapon in Lua that was simaue in that a weapon element diesn't by RAW helps. I never really like that explanation either.

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A garrote is generally a weapon to be used as a surprise attack

so you are generally attacking a target who is not defending himself

 

use the surprise rules

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Well, buying six levels with a single weapon usable versus hit location penalties is 6 points versus buying Choke Hold and adding Garrote as a weapon element for 5 points. They're pretty much the same cost.

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your doing a grab vs a location so your looking at a -9 vs a +6

Well, buying six levels with a single weapon usable versus hit location penalties is 6 points versus buying Choke Hold and adding Garrote as a weapon element for 5 points. They're pretty much the same cost.

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A -3 to hit for 6 points versus a -2 to hit for 5 points then. Choke Hold would be the better option if it was house-ruled to work like a neck grab. Since you have to buy a minimum of 10 points of maneuvers, the cost savings are offset a bit.

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Based on Steve's answers to my questions, Choke Hold shouldn't have had a weapon element associated with it. That was where my confusion came from. If you pay points, you should be getting some benefit from them, and in the case of garrote and Choke Hold, you actually don't. The maneuver is one of those that is meant to be barehanded only, despite what the martial arts book says.

 

I am assuming that your confusion came from this excerpt from HSMA6e page 8

post-2288-0-79970800-1451269446.jpg

 

To be fair.  I've looked at this section* multiple times before in the past and never tried to use it to justify the combination you proposed.  I think I always viewed it as a mistake by Mr. Long and didn't see it as something worth asking about in the Rule Forum.

 

*NOTE - A version of this appears in the 5e and 4e Ultimate Martial Artist books also authored by Mr. Long.  I guess no one questioned it back then so it didn't get changed in time for 6e.

 

post-2288-0-79970800-1451269446_thumb.jpg

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Hyper-Man, please take a look at Lua in the martial arts styles in HSMA6e. It specifically includes a garrote as a weapon element for that style. I built a martial artist who knew Lua, so that is where my questions came from. The style should not have had that element, it seems.

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Hyper-Man, please take a look at Lua in the martial arts styles in HSMA6e. It specifically includes a garrote as a weapon element for that style. I built a martial artist who knew Lua, so that is where my questions came from. The style should not have had that element, it seems.

 

It's still a valid Weapon Element for the Martial Art.

 

from HSMA6e page 52

 

 

+1 Use Art with Garotte (Crab Pinch and Crab Throat Pinch only)

 

 

Crab Pinch 4 -1 +0 Grab One Location; +2d6 to Squeeze

 

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Combined with my earlier example it would allow a STR 10 character to also do 4d6 base damage (x2 for targeting the Head).

 

10 Strangling Garrotte:  HA +3d6, Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (rigid Resistant PD on the neck or not needing to breathe; All Or Nothing; +1) (45 Active Points); Conditional Power Must Be Aimed At Head (-1), IAF (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Limited Power Must Follow Grab (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 5 (-1/4)        
4d6 NND with STR 15 before applying the 2x Normal Damage modifier for targeting Hit Locations 3-5

 

I asked Mr. Long if the STR above the minimum should apply to using this version of the Garrotte and he said as written it would but I think I would change the weapon to not provide a damage bonus for STR above the STR minimum.

 

Example:

9 Strangling Garotte (alternate version): HA +3d6, Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (rigid Resistant PD on the neck or not needing to breathe; All Or Nothing; +1) (45 Active Points); Conditional Power Must Be Aimed At Head (Unlike a Choke Hold this gets the x2 Normal Stun Multiple from targetting the throat; -1), STR Minimum 5 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), IAF (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Limited Power Must Follow Grab (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

4d6 NND when combined with Crab Pinch Martial Maneuver before applying the 2x Normal Damage modifier for targeting Hit Locations 3-5

 

*Crab Pinch -1 +0 Grab One Location; +2d6 to Squeeze (Lua)

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Vampiric Martial Arts Maneuvers:

1) Vampiric Choke Hold (5 pts)

-1 OCV/+0 DCV; Grab One Limb; 2d6 NND(2*)

2) Vampiric Killing Strike (5 pts)

-1 OCV/+0 DCV; HKA 1/2D6 +STR damage

 

10 pts worth is the minimum for buying Martial Arts.

 

Vampire Bite:

Does BODY (+1) for 2d6 NND(6**) Vampiric Choke Hold Maneuver ((25 STR Grab [25-5], 6 DC attack [+30], One Limb [-5], -1 OCV [-5])=(40 active pts)); No Knockback (-1/4), Unified Power (Drink Blood; -1/4), Beam (-1/4).

4 Endurance.

(23 character pts)

 

Vampire Bite is a Power Advantage for a Martial Arts Maneuver w/ Limitations (UMA 104, 5th).

 

Drink Blood:

Simplified Healing 2d6, Trigger (when character uses Vampire Bite, activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger resets automatically; +1)(40 active pts); Linked (Vampire Bite; -1/2), Unified Power (Vampire Bite; -1/4), Only Heal Self (-1).

4 Endurance.

(14 character pts)

 

One 2d6 effect roll works for both the Does BODY NND(6**) attack & the Simplified Healing.

 

Neck-Seeking:

Penalty Skill Levels: +9 OCV vs. Hit Locations w/ Vampiric Killing Strike Maneuver.

(9 character pts)

 

Special Hit Location (APG 173):

Neck/Throat*** (-9 To Hit)

STUNx x5

N STUN x1

BODYx x2

 

 

 

*NND(2): Rigid resistant PD on the neck or not having to breath. Note the Vampiric Choke Hold automatically targets the Neck/Throat*** w/o rolling for Hit Locations.

 

**NND(6): PD Force Field or Power Defense. Note the change in NND when Vampire Bite is added to Vampiric Choke Hold. This simulates a mystical negative energy attack.

 

*** a hit to the throat usually causes loss of voice or similar problems in addition to any other damage it causes.

 

 

"Blaw!"

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Well, yes, I could see how Crab Pinch could work with it, but Crab Throat Pinch does not per the replies I got back from Mr. Long, even though the section you quoted says it should.

 

The problem I see with Crab Pinch is that you still need to call a shot to the head at -8 to use it with the garrote, on top of the OCV penalty of the maneuver.

 

EDIT: Per Mr. Long, the Crab Pinch maneuver doesn't add to the garrote's damage either.

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Well, yes, I could see how Crab Pinch could work with it, but Crab Throat Pinch does not per the replies I got back from Mr. Long, even though the section you quoted says it should.

 

The problem I see with Crab Pinch is that you still need to call a shot to the head at -8 to use it with the garrote, on top of the OCV penalty of the maneuver.

 

EDIT: Per Mr. Long, the Crab Pinch maneuver doesn't add to the garrote's damage either.

 

Yeah. That response threw me as well. 

 

Using a Garrotte is not "squeezing" the neck of a target?!? Really?

 

I'll chalk this up to Steve not wanting to split hairs with his last rules answer to you on the subject and just give the quickest answer to get this to go away.

 

It reminds me of his answer to a 5e question I posed many years ago regarding Hardened and its interaction with AP, Penetrating and Indirect.  He eventually changed his mind and included the change in 5er.  He then proceeded to make individual defenses for Penetrating and Indirect separate from Hardened (which now only affects AP).

 

HM

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Yeah, basically Lua doesn't function the way it seems like it should from the HSMA6e book. It has a weapon element with garrotte, but the element doesn't actually do anything with either of the maneuvers, even though it is listed as working with them. Per the RAW, it's a total waste of a point.

 

I went and checked through the martial arts styles, and Lua was the only one that had garotte as a weapon element. Per page 265 of the HSMA6e book, any chain weapon can be used as a garotte, and there were some martial arts styles that had a Choke Hold and Chain & Rope Weapons as an element.

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