slikmar Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 Also, the clear change of what the movie was about affected him too, being that apparently Snyder actually planned to make the movie about Cyborg as the central character, or so says Fisher. Whedon was trying to turn it into a funner ensemble piece. All these comments on Whedon (and note, he keeps being called abusive, but not in the Me Too style, though maybe there are those too) makes me wonder how any of these people would have dealt with some of the iron fisted directors of yore. Or, as mentioned in another thread, working with an actor like Danny Kaye, etc. I sort of wish there was more detail, as in what type of stuff. But then, I also lost a lot of respect for Nathon Fillon after his breakup with Katic and he basically was trying to black ball her when she was requesting equal or at least close to pay on Castle. Never meet your heroes, even the geek ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 Don't expect actors to resemble who they play. Appreciate them for their performance, and leave it at that. Elevating them as persons just because of their talent usually leads to disappointment. Same advice for professional athletes. Iuz the Evil, pinecone and Christopher R Taylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 23 minutes ago, slikmar said: But then, I also lost a lot of respect for Nathon Fillon after his breakup with Katic and he basically was trying to black ball her when she was requesting equal or at least close to pay on Castle. What breakup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 During season 3 or so, they had a real life relationship. After they broke up combined with him blocking her pay requests there was apparently a huge animosity between the 2. It was actually a credit to their acting ability that most fans never realized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 1 hour ago, zslane said: WB put that movie on the path to failure from the very start. Firing Snyder and bringing on Whedon out of desperation only made matters worse. But rather than pulling up his big boy pants and just getting through the crappy situation with as much grace as possible, Fisher went the route of passive aggressive resentment, and has turned this into the cross he has chosen to bear for what will probably be the rest of his rather brief career in Hollywood. Since Ray Fisher came out with his complaints, numerous other people have come forward to say that Josh Whedon is an abusive ***hole. People always putting up with "crappy situations with as much grace as possible" is a good way to ensure that crappy situations never get any better. As Whedon's choice of victims has shown, crappy situations have a way being even crappier for women and minorities. So, while keeping his head down and not complaining might have been the smart thing to do for his own career, he wouldn't have been doing black actors that follow him any favors. IMHO, Ray Fisher handled the whole thing with grace and dignity. Having seen Zack Snyder's cut, Ray Fisher has talent that wasn't on display in the theatrical release. He has a strong voice and screen presence. I am confident that has a great career ahead of him, though that may play out on stage and indie productions instead of in big studio blockbusters. Matt the Bruins and Lord Liaden 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 I think Cyborg is a great character, and I could definitely see him doing interesting things in the future but he sure didn't have much to work with in the movie. The focus was so much on Batman, Aquaman, and Superman that everyone else got pretty short shrift (other than the "look at what a dipstick the Flash is" moments). I kind of appreciate what they were going for with the Flash, as a naive beginner who isn't sure what to do because he's so insanely powerful this keeps him under control. But while Batman is a very knowledgeable guy and arguably a capable teacher in principle, in this universe he never had a Robin to teach, and shows zero inclination to be a mentor. Plus I find Batfleck a very unconvincing character. Its just Ben Affleck in a black rubber costume. He felt more like the character even as Daredevil that as Batman. "My power is being rich," my ass. On the other hand, Wonder Woman is the most experienced of all the characters by a huge margin, with several times the experience and time as a hero than Batman and Superman combined. She would have been a terrific mentor for the Flash. Instead she doesn't do much but lasso Superman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said: in this universe he never had a Robin to teach Except for the dead one whose bloodied costume was shown in BvS. This is DKR Batman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said: Except for the dead one whose bloodied costume was shown in BvS. This is DKR Batman. At the end of JL, the future Joker implies that Batman had more than one protege. All dead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 According to Snyder, the Robin suit was Grayson's. 7 hours ago, slikmar said: During season 3 or so, they had a real life relationship. After they broke up combined with him blocking her pay requests there was apparently a huge animosity between the 2. It was actually a credit to their acting ability that most fans never realized. https://www.whosdatedwho.com/dating/stana-katic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 Quote At the end of JL, the future Joker implies that Batman had more than one protege. All dead Well none of that suggests he's any good at teaching young heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 I'm actually willing to take even a single example of a dead child protégé on one's watch as evidence that one is not good at teaching young heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 I take it as evidence you shouldn't plot by reader voting. slikmar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted April 7, 2021 Report Share Posted April 7, 2021 Robin was part of a literary tradition of young boys taking on wild, dangerous adventures, such as Jim Hawkins in Treasure Island. I think he works best in that context. But when you take Batman and make his stories dark, grim, and ultra-violent, then kid sidekicks no longer make any sense. You either remove the tween sidekicks from the stories, or you end up looking like an idiot for suggesting that it makes any kind of sense for Batman to bring kids into his lethal world of vigilantism. Pointing out that Batman is a poor mentor of young boys on the basis of stories--and the grimdark setting they inhabit--that aren't appropriate for young sidekicks to begin with is essentially a straw man argument. Christopher R Taylor, Grailknight and unclevlad 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 The Justice League screenwriter tried to have his name taken off the Joss Whedon cut This was probably the one guy from whom I really wanted to hear an account of this trainwreck. And it would seem to confirm what we all suspected--the suits are to blame. Which means future DC films will be hit or miss, at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 The suits were in an impossible situation, as the director suffered a unexpected tragedy. How do you save a $300 million investment? Do you: - cancel the film - postpone it until the director is ready to get back to work, maybe/maybe not. How long do you postpone it knowing full well that you are still paying for it. - hire another director to take over. With Joss already brought in to consult in lightening the film up, and with his experience with the Avengers film, and showrunner on multiple successful series, Joss had the credentials to handle the film. The studio & film executives went with option 3, with Joss, to salvage the film. Joss would have been under enormous pressure to not screw up. No doubt the studio gave him the following writ: complete the film (which he did) and get the runtime to around 2 hours. Also no doubt the different interactions between Joss, the studio, and the cast revolve around the above writ. Understandably the cast was unhappy with the changes, and with Joss’s no-nonsense approach in completing the film. Also understandable the cast likely had some loyalty to Zack and his vision for the film, which Joss changed--thus ruffled feathers between the two parties, with the studio siding with Joss. And one minor point about the actress insisting her character change her hairstyle. While on Game of Thrones Kit Harington, actor for Jon Snow, had a contract on his hair (1). (1) https://heatworld.com/celebrity/news/game-thrones-star-kit-harington-s-hair-contract-yes-really/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 The more I read the article on Terrio, the more I felt that he and Zack on same page and the descriptions he was giving, whether required by suits or not, that they did not understand Superman and still wanted to create a darker version of him worshipped by people, not inspired by. Perhaps I am wrong. I also go back to the 2 of them trying to create movies that would not fit timewise in what a studio wanted as a released movie. He can complain all he and Zack and Ray want about how much was butchered out of the JL movie, but again, you gave them a 3 1/2 to 4 hour movie. It has been mentioned multiple times how much JL would have been helped by solo movies for Cyborg (especially since you apparently wanted to feature him) and Flash. Has anyone seen this other version of BVS, does the motivations for any of the characters make more sense or is Batman still stupid enough to fall for an obvious plot of Lex's (not that he knows its Lex). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 Quote Robin was part of a literary tradition of young boys taking on wild, dangerous adventures, such as Jim Hawkins in Treasure Island. I think he works best in that context. But when you take Batman and make his stories dark, grim, and ultra-violent, then kid sidekicks no longer make any sense. Yeah Batman as a superhero, sidekick training is okay. Batman as potrayed in Zach Snyders miseryverse, not so much. unclevlad and Pattern Ghost 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 9 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: miseryverse Oh my, now there is one magnificent piece of linguistic creation.... Pattern Ghost 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 5 hours ago, Bazza said: The suits were in an impossible situation, as the director suffered a unexpected tragedy. I think it has been pretty well documented that the suicide of Zach's daughter had little-to-nothing to do with his departure from the project. That was merely the cover story given to the public. Old Man, Matt the Bruins, slikmar and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 In a lot of ways, and explained above by others, probably better, I would say Whedon was in the impossible situation. Tasked with refilming parts of a movie set in a tone he would never have used and told to lighten it up without actually losing that tone. The actors were in a tough situation as they were being told that the story was changing but staying the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 6 minutes ago, slikmar said: In a lot of ways, and explained above by others, probably better, I would say Whedon was in the impossible situation. Tasked with refilming parts of a movie set in a tone he would never have used and told to lighten it up without actually losing that tone. The actors were in a tough situation as they were being told that the story was changing but staying the same. The part that I was struggling with was why Whedon was allowed to completely rewrite a film that was already being shot. But now we know he was probably ordered to rewrite it. And maybe he was an asshole all along, but we know he can write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 Remember Suicide Squad had three edits before it hit the theaters CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 37 minutes ago, csyphrett said: Remember Suicide Squad had three edits before it hit the theaters CES Yeah, and I think all three were included in the final product we saw in theaters. Spence, Starlord, Lawnmower Boy and 2 others 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 10 minutes ago, slikmar said: Yeah, and I think all three were included in the final product we saw in theaters. It fits the profile is all. The original cut was too dark. The second cut was too light. The third was too much of a mix and match. Warner Brothers have directors but in the end they don't have an executive producer like Kevin Feige. I guess what I am saying is Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Shazam succeeded with movie goers because they were basically left alone to do their thing, and the directors kind of know what a hero acts like. Zach Snyder's movies didn't succeed like they wanted because of writing problems, tonal issues, and there was a production committee going change all this. And point blank Snyder knew going in that there needed to be a success to have a sequel and he blew that for his cast and crew. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 Snyder has been sufficiently dismissive of any criticism about his work that I don't think he can necessarily tell the difference between what he'd like to see onscreen and what will be successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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