DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[csyphrett]

16 hours ago, Dr.Device said:

I find the idea that there's something unrealistic or inappropriate about established characters being revealed to be gay or bi hilarious. I made it it to fifty years old without realizing that I'm trans. I was married with two kids. No one (including me) suspected that I was anything other than a straight, cisgender man. And I know a ton of people in the same (or a similar) boat.

 

As long as society keeps moving in the right direction, I think this will happen less and less, but it's not going  go away, at least not in my lifetime. People figure out they're different at their own pace. Or they just don't reveal certain aspects of themselves until they're ready. It's the world we live in. Even though comic book worlds aren't our world, there's no reason to expect them to be different in that particular regard.

 

Just because you don't want to see something doesn't make it unrealistic or inappropriate.

As a writer, it's unrealistic because you have to make the story make sense and foreshadowing is a thing you use. As a reader, you're invested in the character and the writer just changing something seemingly overnight doesn't go over well unless the change is going to be temporary. Robin getting superpowers would not engender anything more than a look because everyone knows they are going to go away at some point like when Spider-Man was Captain Universe, or when Superman was Superman Blue.

 

it the same situation that Laura Hamiliton is/was having with Anita Blake.

CES  

[zslane]

On 8/21/2021 at 5:47 PM, Dr.Device said:

I made it it to fifty years old without realizing that I'm trans. I was married with two kids. No one (including me) suspected that I was anything other than a straight, cisgender man.

Sure. This does happen and it is obviously a very real thing, but in the grand scheme of our species, not very common. Now imagine how it feels to the people who knew you for 40-50 years. It would seem completely unexpected, out of left field, and hard to fathom. That's exactly how long-time comic book readers feel when hit with the same thing about beloved characters they've known for decades. The difference is that your experience, while very authentic, has never been part of the superhero genre before, and so readers are not prepared for a sudden dose of "sexual identity realism" injected into their comic books. It is supremely jarring, and it feels less like an attempt at verisimilitude and more like a desperate bid to gain enough contemporary social relevance to keep the printing machines running.

[Greywind]

On 8/22/2021 at 12:13 AM, dmjalund said:

Why don't they bring back Jericho?

 

Because it was canceled twice due to poor ratings?

[archer]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:47 PM, Dr.Device said:

I find the idea that there's something unrealistic or inappropriate about established characters being revealed to be gay or bi hilarious. I made it it to fifty years old without realizing that I'm trans. I was married with two kids. No one (including me) suspected that I was anything other than a straight, cisgender man. And I know a ton of people in the same (or a similar) boat.

 

 

Not to be indelicate (and you're aware I've been supportive of your personal journey).

 

But if your day-to-day life were chronicled in comic book form, did your realization come as a bolt from the blue at the end of issue #1224?

 

Or was there some process of gradual internal realization which the readers could have seen from reading your thought balloons in the issues leading up to #1224?

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, zslane said:

Sure. This does happen and it is obviously a very real thing, but in the grand scheme of our species, not very common. Now imagine how it feels to the people who knew you for 40-50 years. It would seem completely unexpected, out of left field, and hard to fathom. That's exactly how long-time comic book readers feel when hit with the same thing about beloved characters they've known for decades. The difference is that your experience, while very authentic, has never been part of the superhero genre before, and so readers are not prepared for a sudden dose of "sexual identity realism" injected into their comic books. It is supremely jarring, and it feels less like an attempt at verisimilitude and more like a desperate bid to gain enough contemporary social relevance to keep the printing machines running.

 

Pretty sure "your ward Speedy is a junkie" pretty much came out of nowhere, and it was certainly not part of the superhero genre previously, due to the Comics Code.  Ditto Harry Osborn in the Marvel Universe, not too far from the same time.

 

Pretty much everything past straightforward narrative storytelling of solving a mystery or a punch-up, right down to continued stories had never been part of the genre until someone made it a part of the genre.

[zslane]

30 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Pretty much everything past straightforward narrative storytelling of solving a mystery or a punch-up, right down to continued stories had never been part of the genre until someone made it a part of the genre.

 

Indeed. But there are deft, skillful ways to do that, and coarse, bumbling ways to do that, and most of the examples you cite fall into the latter category. Yes, it has been done, but not well, and that's not worth celebrating, emulating, or perpetuating.

[Greywind]

Harry got a pass mainly due to the fact it was Spider-Man's book. Not "The Amazing Harry Osborn".

 

It was a shock to Peter when he found out, because he didn't see it coming. As I recall Peter went through a stage of "if I'd been a better friend" because of it.

[Bazza]

Oops, wrong thread. 

[csyphrett]

Harry Osborn was foreshadowed before his breakdown because he was breaking up with Mary Jane Watson so he's on camera buying drugs and then taking them until he overdoses.

 

Speedy's drug addiction came out of nowhere and is basically the kind of hack writing we're talking about. We need a junkie to make GL/GA relevant against drugs. Speedy is our junkie. Seriously. You can't do better than this, O'Neill?

CES      

[assault]

33 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

Speedy'srug addiction came out of nowhere and is basically the kind of hack writing we're talking about. We need a junkie to make GL/GA relevant against drugs. Speedy is our junkie. Seriously. You can't do better than this, O'Neill?

CES      

 

Speedy hadn't appeared anywhere since the original Teen Titans were cancelled. He was an unused chàracter who hadn't appeared for years.

 

Sure, it made Green Arrow look like a bit of a dick, but that was part of the point.

 

GA didn't see it coming. That's his problem, not ours 

 

Not hack work at all.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Also, DC hates Roy Harper. 

[Hugh Neilson]

So, if we reveal that Ben Grimm is Jewish, it';s just hack writing.   Never mind that he grew up in an area with a high Jewish population, his name ("Benjamin Jacob Grimm") is quite consistent with being Jewish and his religion (Jewish or otherwise) has never cropped up, it's "hack writing"?  Ditto Colossal Boy, a character in an ensemble cast where we have never seen any indication of religion (especially being a thousand years in the future), turning out to be Jewish is "hack writing".

 

Would it have been better writing for everyone to be Anglican, or Roman Catholic, or agnostic, or atheist, because that is what you, one reader, imputed from the fact their religion had never been mentioned?  Maybe LSH should have assumed that religions which have already survived 2+ millennia would not make it another thousand years?  Black Manta should have been white because we'd never seen under  the helmet, and lots of people are white, so he must be white?

 

If a character is solidly straight (or Catholic) one issue, then securely bisexual (or Jewish) in the next, followed by being confidently homosexual (or an uncertain agnostic), and has been all his life, six months later, I'd call that hack writing.  Diving into character attributes that have never been solidly defined in past appearances?  Not so much.  Especially when a lot of that character's appearances have either been as a secondary character (Robin to Bruce's Batman) or part of an ensemble cast (the many Teen Titans books), not a solo star whose psyche and relationships have typically been front & center.

 

But we are back to the constant criticism of comics.  "Nothing ever changes - how boring!"  "You changed that?  YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT!!!"

[zslane]

Change is necessary for good drama. There is no character arc if the character never changes. But comic books are like soap operas where change is designed to happen so slowly as to be imperceptible. And I think there's huge a difference between organic character development and out-of-the-blue revelations that make readers go, "Huh?" Ben Grimm can be revealed as Jewish if it is consistent with his background, consistent with his behavior, consistent with his dialog, and has any point of relevance to the ongoing stories of the Fantastic Four. If it isn't consistent, then it feels like an entirely different person has suddenly inhabited the body. And if there is no narrative relevance, then it is just a meaningless bullet point in the "Backstory" portion of his character sheet. As I said, there's nothing wrong with introducing these character details if they are done well and done for a purpose other than to check off boxes on a corporate diversity agenda.

[archer]

3 hours ago, Logan.1179 said:

Also, DC hates Roy Harper. 

 

So say we all.

[Grailknight]

Finally had a chance to watch The Suicide Squad.  It was a fun ride that didn't take itself too seriously while still sticking to concept. They managed the character background well, the violence was well choreographed and the plot was coherent and believable. As long as you go in expecting an action comedy, you won't be disappointed. 8/10.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, zslane said:

Change is necessary for good drama. There is no character arc if the character never changes. But comic books are like soap operas where change is designed to happen so slowly as to be imperceptible. And I think there's huge a difference between organic character development and out-of-the-blue revelations that make readers go, "Huh?" Ben Grimm can be revealed as Jewish if it is consistent with his background, consistent with his behavior, consistent with his dialog, and has any point of relevance to the ongoing stories of the Fantastic Four. If it isn't consistent, then it feels like an entirely different person has suddenly inhabited the body. And if there is no narrative relevance, then it is just a meaningless bullet point in the "Backstory" portion of his character sheet. As I said, there's nothing wrong with introducing these character details if they are done well and done for a purpose other than to check off boxes on a corporate diversity agenda.

 

So, having not read the Tim Drake "coming out" issues, I do not see passing judgment on whether they are well done or not being practical yet.  I quite liked the story revealing Ben's Jewish heritage (which was really a Thing solo story), building on past details of his youth. 

[Starlord]

The blue camo suit will be seen in Aquaman 2

 

[unclevlad]

Do they ever get anything right?

 

Just dropped today.

 

 

The trailer may be misleading;  they often are.  But this looks like it's trying to make Dark Knight look optimistic.  

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Change is necessary for good drama. There is no character arc if the character never changes. But comic books are like soap operas where change is designed to happen so slowly as to be imperceptible. 

 

The illusion of change is what comics are about: they seem to change, but don't really ever

[Greywind]

 

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Cool trailer, but can a decent movie be made with such an obvious villain as the focus of the story? I mean he flat out kills a guy just for being near him. And....Shazam really needs to be in this.

[Scott Ruggels]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Do they ever get anything right?

 

Just dropped today.

 

 

The trailer may be misleading;  they often are.  But this looks like it's trying to make Dark Knight look optimistic.  

 

I'd go see it.

 

2 minutes ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

Cool trailer, but can a decent movie be made with such an obvious villain as the focus of the story? I mean he flat out kills a guy just for being near him. And....Shazam really needs to be in this.

I would have to agree, Shazam needs to be in it, but it could be a decent set up for a Shazam @, maybe.

[Scott Ruggels]

...And then there is this, also dropped during DC Fandome:

 

 

[Greywind]

I'm sure eventually Capt Marvel and Black Adam will meet. Either in Shazam 3 or Black Adam 2. Maybe get to see Cavill's Superman again.

[slikmar]

So, DC and Marvel are starting Crossovers? Which movie do you think Brie Larson will appear in? LOL