DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Bazza]

So, post the Black Panther 2 plot summary from Wikipedia the hour after it is written, got the message. 

[Bazza]

Superman Reborn: Christopher Reeve's Cancelled Return to Superman

 

Superman IV may have been a critical flop, but Christopher Reeves very nearly made a big return as the Man of Steel on film.

 

https://www.cbr.com/superman-reborn-christopher-reeves-cancelled-return-movie/

[Old Man]

On 11/6/2022 at 7:22 PM, unclevlad said:

 

Wakanda Forever on Friday.  No way I'll go first weekend, so please, no spoilers for a while.   The week after...pretty likely.  3 hours again...well, one place has a 1:30 showing, and another has a 2 PM.  Those both work pretty well.

 

Why would we post Wakanda Forever spoilers in the DC thread? 

 

Late to the party, but just got out of Black Adam.  It greatly exceeded my expectations, which have been set pretty low by prior DC films.  The Rock played The Rock, which is fine by me.  The JSA were the highlight of the film. 

 

Haven't seen anyone else mention this, but Black Adam was... fairly well written.  It's not Shakespeare, but it stayed mostly true to the source, had character-driven interactions and development, and most importantly it wasn't predictable.  On top of that, it was nice for a supers movie to not even bother with origin stories for a couple of characters, for once.

[Lord Liaden]

I agree, BA was pretty compellingly written. His story takes most of the movie to fully unravel, but we're left with the impression of someone who's very grey, and one bad day away from burning the world down. That's why I wish Dwayne Johnson had played up more of those shades of grey.

[Hermit]

I think DC films get bad reviews for a multitude of reasons.

One, they often ARE bad, or at least are mediocre. I say that as someone who enjoys a lot of DC movies than others do.

 

Two, there seems to be a subset of Hollywood critics who either hate, or have grown to hate, the superhero genre. They're skittish about trashing obvious successes like Marvel/Disney movies have mostly been, because despite their best efforts, the fans will just look at them and go 'what the hell is wrong with these critics, that was a fun or even great movie'. But DC doesn't have Marvel's proven quality, fewer fans like em. So the critics can tear the hell out of them treating movies like Black Adam as if they were Puma Man in Bad 3D (Apologies to any Puma Man fans out there). I am not saying there is an organized effort by movie critics to discourage WB from making more superhero movies but individuals certainly seem to see this as a chance to discourage the genre as they focus on the DC movies like clay pigeons

 

Three, Expectations for superhero movies are not what they used to be. Not to put on my old man yells at clouds act out too much , but 'back in my day' I remember growing up with Spider-Man with mesh  eyeballs and cables coming out of his arms to swing on TV, or a big body builder just painted Green while wearing Bill Bixby's tattered second hand clothes... "AND WE WERE GLAD TO GET IT!"  . It was a desert of few waters. Now, we're in a river of superhero options! Saying something is a Superhero movie does not mean folks who consider themselves superhero fans feel like you're the only game in town.  It's the difference between a Western Fan getting to watch "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" or "Smelly Joe the Horse Killer" on TV. Most Western Fans will go for the better film even if Smelly Joe has moments and they only got so much time to watch.

[Starlord]

8 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Why would we post Wakanda Forever spoilers in the DC thread? 

 

Half the people in the Marvel thread seem to hate Marvel?

[Lord Liaden]

I like where Marvel has been, but I'm not too happy with where it seems to be going. With DC I've become rather the reverse.

[Old Man]

13 minutes ago, Starlord said:

 

Half the people in the Marvel thread seem to hate Marvel?

 

That's what happens when you have one or two Marvel-haters in there and they drive the rest of us out.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I like where Marvel has been, but I'm not too happy with where it seems to be going. With DC I've become rather the reverse.

 

I feel as though Marvel's Phase 2-3 run was unsustainable, but the MCU is still consistently above average for the genre.  Whereas the DCEU seemingly has nowhere to go but up--if the suits will let it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I am not saying there is an organized effort by movie critics to discourage WB from making more superhero movies but individuals certainly seem to see this as a chance to discourage the genre as they focus on the DC movies like clay pigeons

 

Its a theory, certainly something is driving reviewers to glow over something mediocre from Marvel, then dump all over something DC puts out that is the same level of quality.  Black Adam isn't a great movie, but its at least as good as Black Panther.

[Hermit]

Just now, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Its a theory, certainly something is driving reviewers to glow over something mediocre from Marvel, then dump all over something DC puts out that is the same level of quality.  Black Adam isn't a great movie, but its at least as good as Black Panther.

 

Oh wow. I LIKED Black Adam fine, but we really disagree there that it was "at least as good as Black Panther" . I think Black Panther was the far superior movie. There was better Acting over all  in Black Panther  compared to Pierce Bronson being the stand out (With Aldis Hodge solid to good). The pulp era touches of Wakanda were a thrill. Overall better tighter writing in Black Panther as well imo. If Black Adam was a 7, Black Panther was an 8.5, again imo.

 

That said, yeah, Critics often seem to feel 'safer' trashing DC movies.

 

[Lord Liaden]

Interesting you should say that, because it looked to me like this DC movie is trying to present Black Adam's Middle Eastern homeland of Kahndaq as their analogue to Wakanda. Both countries are the sources of miraculous materials ("eternium" in the case of Kahndaq), and both countries have superhuman protectors. Kahndaq had long been subjugated, but the subjugators used some eternium-powered tech.

[slikmar]

1 hour ago, Hermit said:

I think DC films get bad reviews for a multitude of reasons.

One, they often ARE bad, or at least are mediocre. I say that as someone who enjoys a lot of DC movies than others do.

 

Two, there seems to be a subset of Hollywood critics who either hate, or have grown to hate, the superhero genre. They're skittish about trashing obvious successes like Marvel/Disney movies have mostly been, because despite their best efforts, the fans will just look at them and go 'what the hell is wrong with these critics, that was a fun or even great movie'. But DC doesn't have Marvel's proven quality, fewer fans like em. So the critics can tear the hell out of them treating movies like Black Adam as if they were Puma Man in Bad 3D (Apologies to any Puma Man fans out there). I am not saying there is an organized effort by movie critics to discourage WB from making more superhero movies but individuals certainly seem to see this as a chance to discourage the genre as they focus on the DC movies like clay pigeons

 

Three, Expectations for superhero movies are not what they used to be. Not to put on my old man yells at clouds act out too much , but 'back in my day' I remember growing up with Spider-Man with mesh  eyeballs and cables coming out of his arms to swing on TV, or a big body builder just painted Green while wearing Bill Bixby's tattered second hand clothes... "AND WE WERE GLAD TO GET IT!"  . It was a desert of few waters. Now, we're in a river of superhero options! Saying something is a Superhero movie does not mean folks who consider themselves superhero fans feel like you're the only game in town.  It's the difference between a Western Fan getting to watch "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" or "Smelly Joe the Horse Killer" on TV. Most Western Fans will go for the better film even if Smelly Joe has moments and they only got so much time to watch.

I would add one other thing, kind of goes with your One: How many times have we watched a DC film (I am specifically thinking the Superman movies) that were not even close ideologically to the character fans know. For all the arguments, Marvel has presented the characters we expected on screen.

[Hermit]

1 minute ago, Lord Liaden said:

Interesting you should say that, because it looked to me like this DC movie is trying to present Black Adam's Middle Eastern homeland of Kahndaq as their analogue to Wakanda. Both countries are the sources of miraculous materials ("eternium" in the case of Kahndaq), and both countries have superhuman protectors.

 

I think Wakanda's  Hidden City (Or in this case Kingdom) with advanced tech makes it stand out more than Kahndaq. Mind you, Intergang has hoverbikes and the like, but with Wakanda, the high tech is woven into the socieity. Kahndaq is more 'a few have this, others are out of luck' . That may change if they do a black Adam sequel or develop stuff. If the average citizen reaps the benefits etc.

 

[Hermit]

Just now, slikmar said:

I would add one other thing, kind of goes with your One: How many times have we watched a DC film (I am specifically thinking the Superman movies) that were not even close ideologically to the character fans know. For all the arguments, Marvel has presented the characters we expected on screen.

 

Good catch! You're right. DC/WB has a bad history of trying to 'fix' what isn't broke and ignoring the source material or 'improving' it often to missing the point of what folks loved about the character. The first Wonder Woman movie, imo, got the character right. Shazam wasn't afraid to be a bit upbeat and positive . But despite the Whedon backlash, I am NOT a fan of the Snyder cynicism that was pushed on Superman.

[Lord Liaden]

10 minutes ago, Hermit said:

 

I think Wakanda's  Hidden City (Or in this case Kingdom) with advanced tech makes it stand out more than Kahndaq. Mind you, Intergang has hoverbikes and the like, but with Wakanda, the high tech is woven into the socieity. Kahndaq is more 'a few have this, others are out of luck' . That may change if they do a black Adam sequel or develop stuff. If the average citizen reaps the benefits etc.

 

 

Hey, I never said it was a good analogue.

[BoloOfEarth]

10 hours ago, Hermit said:

It's the difference between a Western Fan getting to watch "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" or "Smelly Joe the Horse Killer" on TV. Most Western Fans will go for the better film even if Smelly Joe has moments and they only got so much time to watch.

 

So, I looked to see if "Smelly Joe the Horse Killer" was an actual movie.  It isn't, which makes me really wonder about what goes on in your head. 

[Hermit]

4 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

So, I looked to see if "Smelly Joe the Horse Killer" was an actual movie.  It isn't, which makes me really wonder about what goes on in your head. 

 

Look, the script got rejected a long time ago, not my fault those damn Californian Studios don't want a story about a REAL Murican!

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Good catch! You're right. DC/WB has a bad history of trying to 'fix' what isn't broke and ignoring the source material or 'improving' it often to missing the point of what folks loved about the character. 

 

I would argue that Marvel used to get the characters close to what we remember and expect, but not as much lately.  Or that they're using an "updated" more modern interpretation used in more recent comics, which does not resemble what I remember and loved about them.  But DC seems in the past to have actively disliked their characters (except Batman) and as you say tried to "fix" them.  Probably putting someone who stated publicly and clearly lives out that they dislike superheroes in charge of, you know, superheroes, was not a very bright idea.

 

The best results seem to be when you put someone who really likes the idea and the characters (like Whedon or Favreau) in charge and let them show that delight in their product.

 

From what I have heard from DC/WB lately that lesson does seem to have sunk in and they have changed their direction.  The end of Black Adam strongly suggests this, not to mention the entire Black Adam movie and the characters in it.  I really appreciate how DC is not ashamed for their characters to wear costumes and have superhero names, secret identities, etc.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Black Adam is probably the most "four-color" of any DC movie to date, but their recent spate of films have certainly trended that way, rather than trying to make every character and movie like Batman, whether that fits or not.

[Hermit]

I hope you guys are right and DC has embraced the trend of 'these are superheroes/villains, and we're not going to apologize for letting them be who they are.'

 

 

[Starlord]

The best DC movies to date are still WWI and The Batman

[Lord Liaden]

I can't comment on Batman movies. I never liked the character or the whole "dark supehero" subgenre. I prefer heroes in the light to those in the shadows; who inspire hope rather than fear.

[Hermit]

32 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I can't comment on Batman movies. I never liked the character or the whole "dark superhero" subgenre. I prefer heroes in the light to those in the shadows; who inspire hope rather than fear.

 

That's one of the reasons I prefer Nightwing to Batman 9 out of 10 times.  But now and then, a writer portrays Batman as very self aware that he is NOT what the world needs in the long run. That there should be hope, even if that's the one thing he's not good at.

 

Example scene

 

 

Depending on the writer, of course, Batman can be seen as a good father figure who wants his kids not to just be better superheroes than he is, but better people.

 

But that's not an angle I've seen in the live action movies much

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

While I love the Dark Knight Returns Frank Miller series, it wasn't meant to be a template for Batman, it was meant as a what if Batman when faced with impossible difficulties, an incredibly corrupt world, and advanced age making him have to change his tactics.

 

But between the success and popularity of that book and the fear of being like the godawful 1960s TV show, every Batman writer and film maker seems to think Dark Knight is the template from now on.  You get some interesting films as a result but Batman didn't used to be so grim, miserable, gloomy, and depressing all the time.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 11/9/2022 at 10:41 AM, slikmar said:

I would add one other thing, kind of goes with your One: How many times have we watched a DC film (I am specifically thinking the Superman movies) that were not even close ideologically to the character fans know. For all the arguments, Marvel has presented the characters we expected on screen.

 

I think MCU got a lot more leeway with its characters than DC did.  Superman, WW and Batman, for example, are icons.  Iron Man, Thor and Captain America?  Not so much.  I found the first Iron Man movie more Robocop than Marvel Super Hero.  Thor rewrote Norse myth into science fiction.  Captain America became more "superhuman" than "peak human" and seemed more reliant on being stronger than on being tactically a better fighter.

 

That didn't change the reality that the MCU movies were far superior to the early DCU movies, regardless of the characters, but MCU has taken considerable liberties with many of the characters.  They have had the advantage of using lesser-known characters (so the liberties are less obvious) and/or characters that have had many different interpretations over the years.