DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Lord Liaden]

I see some validity in your point, Hugh, but I would say that the Marvel movies, at least through the first two Phases, stuck to the core of who their characters were as people, whatever other details were changed around that. Tony Stark was a cocky super-rich genius whose view on his life changed when confronted by the consequences of his actions. Thor the arrogant warrior god-prince was forced to learn humility and compassion for others. Bruce Banner was a good man with a raging monster inside him, always at risk of coming out. Captain America was physically frail but an heroic idealist in mind and heart, granted a body to match his spirit. And so on.

 

Most of the changes to the characters were superficial details which didn't change who they are, in some cases making more sense. I mean, the feats we see Captain America perform in the comics, there's no way a "peak human" would be physically able to pull off.

[Hugh Neilson]

A lot depends on the view of "core to the character".  Tony Stark became a cocky wisecracker in the MCU, Thor lost a lot of his nobility in the transition. Really, Thor barely appeared in the first Thor movie. I felt like Cap was the first MCU movie where they were comfortable enough to portray a comic book Superhero - that WAS Steve Rogers.  The Avengers took that to the next level.

 

At least the Hulk let him learn to talk...only  couple of words, but it moved into the comics.

 

But the characters had to, and did, change to fit the new medium.

 

The general population didn't know enough about the characters to question the changes.  Just as they don't know all that much about the DC B-listers hitting the screen now.  But the MCU made far better movies out of the gate.  DC tried to play catch-up, and lost the heart of their characters pursuing the MCU spectacle and success.

[Lord Liaden]

45 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

But the characters had to, and did, change to fit the new medium.

 

The general population didn't know enough about the characters to question the changes.  Just as they don't know all that much about the DC B-listers hitting the screen now.  But the MCU made far better movies out of the gate.  DC tried to play catch-up, and lost the heart of their characters pursuing the MCU spectacle and success.

 

This part I heartily agree with.

[Matt the Bruins]

On 10/26/2022 at 4:49 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

There have been some more powerful iterations, but I can't recall one who could scrap with Superman.

The post-Zero Hour Hawk God one probably could, and I think that recent Hawkman series retconned Barbatos as one of Hawkman's incarnations, so...  As far as classic superhero versions of the character, though, no. Comics seem to go back and forth on whether he's just a regular guy using weird science and magical gear or has innate superhuman qualities as well, but even in the latter cases he was never one of the heavy hitters.

 

That said, I think what the movie did with him worked extremely well, and they needed someone who was able to go toe-to-toe with Black Adam in a physical fight, even if at an advantage. Hodge's performance felt more in-character for the Carter Hall I remember than any live action adaptation I've seen previously, even if the particular details of his superheroics deviated from the source material.

[Grailknight]

6 hours ago, Matt the Bruins said:

The post-Zero Hour Hawk God one probably could, and I think that recent Hawkman series retconned Barbatos as one of Hawkman's incarnations, so...  As far as classic superhero versions of the character, though, no. Comics seem to go back and forth on whether he's just a regular guy using weird science and magical gear or has innate superhuman qualities as well, but even in the latter cases he was never one of the heavy hitters.

 

That said, I think what the movie did with him worked extremely well, and they needed someone who was able to go toe-to-toe with Black Adam in a physical fight, even if at an advantage. Hodge's performance felt more in-character for the Carter Hall I remember than any live action adaptation I've seen previously, even if the particular details of his superheroics deviated from the source material.

 

I liked the changes to Hawkman, I was just surprised by them. But classic Dr. Fate can scrap with Black Adam just fine. I've seen plenty of iterations where he could go toe to toe. I suspect they removed that aspect of the character to give the rest of the JSA something to do.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The general population didn't know enough about the characters to question the changes.  Just as they don't know all that much about the DC B-listers hitting the screen now. 

 

Yeah as I noted above, Hawkman is an obscure enough character even among comic  book fans that changing him doesn't really damage the character, and indeed he has been changed so often that another version is hardly troubling. 

 

Its odd because objectively, Black Adam really is not that great a movie, but it was very entertaining and interesting such that things which might have annoyed me (the weak plot, the overlong meandering story, the annoying side characters, the use of dramatic visuals over characterization, the Communist cant in the early movie, the hilarious and unexplained disappearance of Intergang in the third act, Dr Fate perpetually taking his helmet off etc) did not bother me as much as it might have.

 

But a movie that is better made but not as fun and rewarding an experience leaves me with just grumbles about the flaws.

[slikmar]

It occurred to me that they kind of matched Hawkman's powers to what we saw of Hawkgirl's in the Dini Justice League series, where she was one of the lesser heavyweights.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, slikmar said:

It occurred to me that they kind of matched Hawkman's powers to what we saw of Hawkgirl's in the Dini Justice League series, where she was one of the lesser heavyweights.

 

Fair assertion, although Hawkgirl's mace in that setting did most of the heavy lifting. In this version of Hawkman he lifted and threw a truck, and could conjure his wings, weapons, and shield on demand. That's a definite step up from animated JL Hawkgirl.

 

13 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

I liked the changes to Hawkman, I was just surprised by them. But classic Dr. Fate can scrap with Black Adam just fine. I've seen plenty of iterations where he could go toe to toe. I suspect they removed that aspect of the character to give the rest of the JSA something to do.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting that perception of Dr. Fate in this movie. One-on-one he gave Black Adam and Sabbac a harder time for longer than any of the other JSA members. Yes, he lost, but he put up a fierce fight. If a hero can defeat the threat by himself, what's the point of putting a team together?

[Christopher R Taylor]

They powered down Dr Fate some for this movie, because honestly yes he could handle pretty much anything on his own.  I mean he's not the Specter who can essentially manipulate reality at will, but he's VERY powerful.

 

Black Adam was just appropriately powered, upon closer study of the character and background.  The Marvels (SHazam now) are basically impossible to harm, stop, or resist.  Captain Marvel would once in a while get bonked and stunned a while by a villain who hit him from behind but he could not be hurt by anything at all whatsoever.  He never had the kryptonite thing.

[Grailknight]

12 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I'm not sure where you're getting that perception of Dr. Fate in this movie. One-on-one he gave Black Adam and Sabbac a harder time for longer than any of the other JSA members. Yes, he lost, but he put up a fierce fight. If a hero can defeat the threat by himself, what's the point of putting a team together?

 

Silver Age Dr Fate could have soloed Black Adam or Sabbac. It wouldn't be easy. They would have a slight edge physically but he's just as tough as they are. At the time of Flash of Two Worlds and the subsequent JLA/JSA crossovers, only The Spectre was clearly more powerful than he was.

 

To be fair he would have had more need of a team than Superman did in JLA.

[Lord Liaden]

I can see what y'all are saying, but speaking from the point of view of this movie, Dr. Fate isn't the lead character. If it was his movie, or comic, you would expect him to win, but it isn't. Black Adam and Sabbac are both legitimate threats to top-tier DC heroes, and I have no problem with Fate losing to them if in the process he's treated with respect. IMO Dr. Fate was respected in this movie.

[Starlord]

The real question is who is the most powerful 'Doctor' in comics? 

[Bazza]

What a strange question…

[Lord Liaden]

If you mean, Doctor Fate or Doctor Strange, according to Death Battle, it's

Spoiler

Dr Fate.

 

Of course if you want to bring in Doctor Doom...

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Who?

 

[Grailknight]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I can see what y'all are saying, but speaking from the point of view of this movie, Dr. Fate isn't the lead character. If it was his movie, or comic, you would expect him to win, but it isn't. Black Adam and Sabbac are both legitimate threats to top-tier DC heroes, and I have no problem with Fate losing to them if in the process he's treated with respect. IMO Dr. Fate was respected in this movie.

 

My only real problem was that Sabbac was able to kill him. Sabbac needed to defeat him so Thoth Adam could be the hero of the movie but Dr. Fate/Nabu is the Lord of Order assigned to protect this universe. He's not a mage with a super artifact, he's nearly a benevolent Lovecraftian Horror.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Dr Doom and Dr Strange have clashed several times, of the two by a large margin Strange is the more powerful sorcerer.  Doom has his armor and he's smarter, but he's outclassed overall.  One of my favorite scenes involving Dr Strange is when he puts the Beyonder in a fugue state, and could have left him in it forever, completely safe but chooses not to because that would be crueland wrong to do to someone who is at heart not evil.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Dr Doom and Dr Strange have clashed several times, of the two by a large margin Strange is the more powerful sorcerer.  Doom has his armor and he's smarter, but he's outclassed overall.  One of my favorite scenes involving Dr Strange is when he puts the Beyonder in a fugue state, and could have left him in it forever, completely safe but chooses not to because that would be crueland wrong to do to someone who is at heart not evil.

 

I don't argue that at all. But the original question was, "who is the most powerful 'Doctor' in comics?" A case can be made that Doom's combined sorcerous and technological skills make him more formidable. And Doom has stolen the power of the Silver Surfer, Galactus, and the Beyonder, so his upper limit seems to be that of whomever he can trick.

 

4 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

My only real problem was that Sabbac was able to kill him. Sabbac needed to defeat him so Thoth Adam could be the hero of the movie but Dr. Fate/Nabu is the Lord of Order assigned to protect this universe. He's not a mage with a super artifact, he's nearly a benevolent Lovecraftian Horror.

 

And Sabbac was the vessel for the combined power of a cabal of arch demons. I guess if you really want to compare the power of supernatural entities based on precedents, it comes down to whether you think Cthulhu trumps Satan.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

his upper limit seems to be that of whomever he can trick.

 

Yeah, he has huge potential.  Of course, Dr Strange used an absorption magical item to become GOD at one point, so he might have the edge.

[mattingly]

Victor did the same thing, and even re-created the universe from nothingness.

[slikmar]

8 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

My only real problem was that Sabbac was able to kill him. Sabbac needed to defeat him so Thoth Adam could be the hero of the movie but Dr. Fate/Nabu is the Lord of Order assigned to protect this universe. He's not a mage with a super artifact, he's nearly a benevolent Lovecraftian Horror.

I also suspect, going meta, that they wanted to give the helmet to someone younger to play Fate in the future. I also got the impression that they were presenting a very tired and older Fate here.

[Lord Liaden]

Valid point. Kent Nelson mentioned in the movie that, thanks to the Helmet of Nabu, he'd already lived over a century.

 

I have read widespread interest among the fandom for a Dr. Fate prequel movie starring Pierce Brosnan. Personally I'd be very down for that.

[Old Man]

11 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

My only real problem was that Sabbac was able to kill him. Sabbac needed to defeat him so Thoth Adam could be the hero of the movie but Dr. Fate/Nabu is the Lord of Order assigned to protect this universe. He's not a mage with a super artifact, he's nearly a benevolent Lovecraftian Horror.

 

I'm pretty sure the movie Dr. Fate was based on the Ultimates version.

[Matt the Bruins]

😆

  

19 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Silver Age Dr Fate could have soloed Black Adam or Sabbac. It wouldn't be easy. They would have a slight edge physically but he's just as tough as they are. At the time of Flash of Two Worlds and the subsequent JLA/JSA crossovers, only The Spectre was clearly more powerful than he was.

 

To be fair he would have had more need of a team than Superman did in JLA.

Golden/Silver Age Dr. Fate had flight/super-strength/limited invulnerability even without using the helmet's active mystical powers, but I never had the impression that they were near the level of Black Adam or Sabbac. I distinctly recall him being put in the hospital by a villain collapsing a brownstone on him in the 1970s. In that respect the movie was pretty faithful to the source material.

 

Of course, through the Helm of Nabu he also had command of magical/cosmic forces that have been both called out on panel and demonstrated to be greater than Darkseid's. The character's only real weakness was that they go away if you can yank his helmet off. I can see why the movie went for somewhat nerfing him to make him a good but ultimately outmatched fight for Sabbac rather than having a supporting character able to defeat the villain with a snap of his fingers but just choosing not to do so. Movie not titled Dr. Fate, after all.

[Bazza]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

 

I'm pretty sure the movie Dr. Fate was based on the Ultimates version.

That could make Dr Fate a Dr Strange variant.