DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Hugh Neilson]

It reminds me of Star Trek, original series, in which Kirk looks like a genius most of the time because whenever he appears to be stuck having to choose between two truly awful options, the story (i.e., the writer) always manages to drum up a third option for him that saves the day. Saavik was spot on when she observed that Kirk had never faced a no-win scenario before, and she was in effect making a rather meta statement (as was Kirk with his retort about not believing in the no-win scenario) about the original series and the writing philosophy that drove it.

Great examples all. This reminds me of the GMs who complain that their players don't follow genre conventions. When we get in deeper, we discover the GM does not follow genre conventions.

 

Superman and Batman do not kill. And they prevail despite their refusal to kill. When the GM puts them in a situation where their refusal to kill guarantees they lose, the players stop building characters with Codes vs Killing, and the GM gets upset that THEY are not following genre conventions.

 

I read a great article on running an early Star Trek RPG which hit the nail on the head. When the opportunity to trade his life for that of a crew member arises, the Captain should have no hesitation in taking it. That's playing to the genre. But so is the ability of the Captain to turn his certain death into victory - the GM also has to follow genre conventions.

[bigdamnhero]

I could've lived with a Superman movie where Superman is eventually placed in a situation where he is forced to kill someone. That alone wouldn't have "ruined" MoS for me if the movie up to that point had been any damn good. But they lost me at Letting Pa Kent Die By Tornado Because I'm An Emo Chickenshit.

[BoloOfEarth]

First, a few caveats: 

I never watched MoS, so all I've seen have been trailers, clips online, stuff like the EGA MoS.

I am also much more a Marvel than DC fan, and not a huge follower of Superman.

 

That said, I watched the EGA MoS video trying to be open-minded, give it a fair shake.  But I have to say the maker of the video lost me the moment he said, "Who cares if they're destroying everything!  This fight is amazing!"  I'm no huge Superman fan, but even I said, "Um... Superman should care."  And because of him, and through him, the audience should care.  Good writing and good direction should see to that.  Maybe it did, and having not seen the full movie I just don't know that.  But from what parts I've seen of MoS, I didn't feel it.

 

Finally, an observation on the whole neck-snapping thing.  So it appears that Supes is trying (and failing) to keep Zod from turning his head farther to the right and eye-beam the bystanders to a cinder.  Fair enough.  Completely leaving aside the whole ethical issue of snapping Zod's neck to stop him... Supes appears to snap Zod's neck by quickly turning Zod's head.  To the right.  It seems to me that doing so would cause Zod's eye-beams to immediately slice through the bystanders.  Wouldn't it?  Just sayin'.

[Old Man]

First, a few caveats: 

I never watched MoS, so all I've seen have been trailers, clips online, stuff like the EGA MoS.

I am also much more a Marvel than DC fan, and not a huge follower of Superman.

I too prefer Marvel, but you really have to watch the entire MoS to understand how relentless it is. (I am not recommending that you actually do this, because your lifespan is finite and hours of it are valuable.)

 

That said, I watched the EGA MoS video trying to be open-minded, give it a fair shake.  But I have to say the maker of the video lost me the moment he said, "Who cares if they're destroying everything!  This fight is amazing!"  I'm no huge Superman fan, but even I said, "Um... Superman should care."  And because of him, and through him, the audience should care.  Good writing and good direction should see to that.  Maybe it did, and having not seen the full movie I just don't know that.  But from what parts I've seen of MoS, I didn't feel it.

The other, lesser, problem with MoS is that it commits the all-too-comomon offense of assuming that spectacular fights are interesting. They can be, up to a point. But if it just drags on with no change in circumstances or personal stakes for the combatants, it gets boring. Oh look, they knocked over another building. Yawn.

 

Finally, an observation on the whole neck-snapping thing.  So it appears that Supes is trying (and failing) to keep Zod from turning his head farther to the right and eye-beam the bystanders to a cinder.  Fair enough.  Completely leaving aside the whole ethical issue of snapping Zod's neck to stop him... Supes appears to snap Zod's neck by quickly turning Zod's head.  To the right.  It seems to me that doing so would cause Zod's eye-beams to immediately slice through the bystanders.  Wouldn't it?  Just sayin'.

I always thought a Three Stooges eyepoke would have been more effective, but there's enough wrong with the movie already that we don't have to spend time picking on continuity and editing mistakes.

[Old Man]

Actually, quite the opposite. He still tries to do the right thing. Him doing that despite it backfiring so often makes him the symbol he is.

Failure is the most important part of a heroes Journey.

You are depicting it as if he went: "Have to Fight Zod. Necksnap".

The ENTIRE FIGHT before that was him trying to subdue Zod WITHOUT snapping his neck.

Yes, but then he did have to snap Zod's neck. So not only was Superman's CvK wrong, the moral is that he should have just killed Zod at the outset, sparing Metropolis hundreds of casualties and billions in damage, and sparing the audience about an hour and a half.

 

Superman should not kill, even to save innocents?

Yet superman should not also not fight the villain to subdue him without killing him?

Showing that Superman fails if he tries to not kill is not what Superman movies should be about. Had I taken my kids to see MoS, I wouldn't just be rolling my eyes at it, I'd be actively pissed off.

 

Then what should he do:

Ask the guy making a "I will make them suffer because you care about them" speech to take the fight somewhere else with less people around?

Should he just have not been there supermanning, letting humanty (and the women he felt strong atraction too) die from the Terraforming?

Should he just not have any film?

I'd like to think that it's possible to write a Superman movie without a Nietzchian plot that still sells tickets. In fact it might even sell more tickets. Maybe they'll try it one day.

[Twilight]

Yes, but then he did have to snap Zod's neck. So not only was Superman's CvK wrong, the moral is that he should have just killed Zod at the outset, sparing Metropolis hundreds of casualties and billions in damage, and sparing the audience about an hour and a half.

 

 

Showing that Superman fails if he tries to not kill is not what Superman movies should be about. Had I taken my kids to see MoS, I wouldn't just be rolling my eyes at it, I'd be actively pissed off.

 

 

I'd like to think that it's possible to write a Superman movie without a Nietzchian plot that still sells tickets. In fact it might even sell more tickets. Maybe they'll try it one day.

Umm, weren't the first to Christopher Reeve Superman movies, Superman movies without Nietzchian plots that sold tickets?

[Iuz the Evil]

Umm, weren't the first to Christopher Reeve Superman movies, Superman movies without Nietzchian plots that sold tickets?

First movie made $300M on a $55M budget (1978 dollars). Definitely sold tickets.

[Starlord]

You mean that movie where he was fighting overwhelming odds, outnumbered by 3 Kryptonians destroying a city so he allowed himself to be appear cowardly in order to save lives then defeated his enemies without killing them?

[Iuz the Evil]

You mean that movie where he was fighting overwhelming odds, outnumbered by 3 Kryptonians destroying a city so he allowed himself to be appear cowardly in order to save lives then defeated his enemies without killing them?

Technically no. That was Superman 2,which made $190M on a $54M budget (also sold tickets).

[Ternaugh]

Technically no. That was Superman 2,which made $190M on a $54M budget (also sold tickets).

 

You mean that movie where he was fighting overwhelming odds, outnumbered by 3 Kryptonians destroying a city so he allowed himself to be appear cowardly in order to save lives then defeated his enemies without killing them?

 

General Zod: This "super-man" is nothing of the kind; I've discovered his weakness.

Ursa: Yes?

General Zod: He cares. He actually cares for these Earth people.

Ursa: Like pets?

General Zod: I suppose.

Ursa: Sentimental idiot!

[Lord Liaden]

I hope Scott Bennie won't mind me reprinting this, but for this topic I just couldn't resist.   Scott often plays Champions Online, usually as his longtime superhero PC alter-ego, Thundrax. From time to time he also posts bits of CU-based fiction featuring that character to the CO website discussion forums. Not long ago Scott put up this bit of Thundrax fiction relating to Batman vs Superman, which I hope you'll find as satisfying as I did. Following are Scott's words:

 

 

(Warning: Spoilers for Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice. Note, this is an IC fiction piece only and not a review of the movie, which many have enjoyed, and which many have also criticized.)






“Isn’t this great?” Sean exclaimed, munching on his popcorn. “This fight is gonna be awesome!”

Craig squirmed in his seat, sighing. It was bad enough when Sean dragged him to this movie the first time, but he wanted to watch it again? Teenagers. He muttered something about Christopher Reeve under his breath.

“Come on Batman,” Sean grinned. “Kick his ass again!”

Craig snorted in disgust, and finally rose to his feet. People immediately snarled at him to sit down. Sean winced. “Uncle Craig, you’re wrecking the movie!”

“Incubus,” Thundrax said with a growl, referring to an omnipotent, malevolent cosmic imp with whom he'd clashed repeatedly over the years. “You remember that favor you once promised me, as long as it’s totally selfish? I’m calling it in.”

With that, Craig walked into the screen.

“Who are you?” Batman and Superman exclaimed together. Craig shook his head.

“The “S” stands for hope?” Craig said. “How about for “stupid”. You’ve got an hour to find your mom, and you waste it on a fight scene? Duh. Superspeed, moron. Use it. Not to mention access to a crack investigative team who might move the damn planet to find a popular co-worker’s kidnapped mom.” He turned on Batman. “And you! Lex Luthor’s bitch!” He placed a Lexcorp logo over the bat symbol on his chest.

“I can take you down too.” the Bat growled.

“Shut up, Luthor's bitch. Oh, by the way, when you said that a 1% chance of him being hostile made you perform an action that has a much higher chance of turning a potentially deadly alien into an enemy... so damn stupid. I so wanted to hit you in the face."

"Try it."

"Give me a break. Even if I wasn't playing Rod Sterling for a day..."

"That's Serling," Superman corrected.

"Fine. Even if I wasn't playing Rod Serling for a day, you don't know my abilities and you haven't made preparations to handle me, so you're hosed." Craig answered. “But for now you’re going to stop being an emotionally stunted three year old and listen to me as I explain everything Luthor’s done to set up this fight. Also, to cut to he chase and quote the Brady Bunch, Martha, Martha, Martha.”

“Wasn’t that Marcia?” Superman wondered.

“Details, Details,” Thundrax chided dismissively. “And as long as I’m here…” Craig concentrated and the sky cleared. Batman shielded his eyes. “Man, no wonder you’re all angry and depressed. This palette makes Caprice look cheery and wholesome.”

“What’s Caprice?” Superman again wondered.

“Shut up. I’m talking.” Craig snapped, and he explained to Batman everything Luthor had done to set up the climactic showdown. He could see Batman's face drop by the end of the very long explanation. “Some detective you are. You still want to fight, Luthor’s bitch?”

Batman said nothing.

“Good. Now, bad CGI Doomsday is on his way, so don’t throw out the Kryptonite spear, give it to Wonder Woman instead, she’s tough enough to handle it, not to mention Amazon training. Okay, I think I’ve done enough for you two morons. This thing is almost as dumb as Thundrax the movie, and that’s saying a lot. But remember you two. Adult yourself. Testosterone can be controlled.”

With that, Craig stepped back out of the picture and returned to his seat, smiling in deep satisfaction. Sean Doerksen dumped his popcorn on the Canadian hero and, hands on his hips, shouted angrily at the Canadian.

“That was the best fight scene ever and you ruined it!” He paused to hyperventilate. “Never take a superhero to see a superhero movie! You’re worse than dad!”

Craig settled back in his seat and chuckled, drinking in the dirty looks of the rest of the audience.

[zslane]

As a person who ... only had passing familiarity with the core concepts that drive those characters...

Okay, I confess to being both surprised and maybe even a little bit puzzled by that. How does one swim in the waters of our popular culture without acquiring a fairly solid grasp (far more than a mere passing familiarity) with the core concepts that drive Superman and Batman, the most well-known superheroes ever created?

[Burrito Boy]

I hope Scott Bennie won't mind me reprinting this, but for this topic I just couldn't resist. Scott often plays Champions Online, usually as his longtime superhero PC alter-ego, Thundrax. From time to time he also posts bits of CU-based fiction featuring that character to the CO website discussion forums. Not long ago Scott put up this bit of Thundrax fiction relating to Batman vs Superman, which I hope you'll find as satisfying as I did. Following are Scott's words:

 

 

(Warning: Spoilers for Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice. Note, this is an IC fiction piece only and not a review of the movie, which many have enjoyed, and which many have also criticized.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Isn’t this great?” Sean exclaimed, munching on his popcorn. “This fight is gonna be awesome!”

 

Craig squirmed in his seat, sighing. It was bad enough when Sean dragged him to this movie the first time, but he wanted to watch it again? Teenagers. He muttered something about Christopher Reeve under his breath.

 

“Come on Batman,” Sean grinned. “Kick his ass again!”

 

Craig snorted in disgust, and finally rose to his feet. People immediately snarled at him to sit down. Sean winced. “Uncle Craig, you’re wrecking the movie!”

 

“Incubus,” Thundrax said with a growl, referring to an omnipotent, malevolent cosmic imp with whom he'd clashed repeatedly over the years. “You remember that favor you once promised me, as long as it’s totally selfish? I’m calling it in.”

 

With that, Craig walked into the screen.

 

“Who are you?” Batman and Superman exclaimed together. Craig shook his head.

 

“The “S” stands for hope?” Craig said. “How about for “stupid”. You’ve got an hour to find your mom, and you waste it on a fight scene? Duh. Superspeed, moron. Use it. Not to mention access to a crack investigative team who might move the damn planet to find a popular co-worker’s kidnapped mom.” He turned on Batman. “And you! Lex Luthor’s bitch!” He placed a Lexcorp logo over the bat symbol on his chest.

 

“I can take you down too.” the Bat growled.

 

“Shut up, Luthor's bitch. Oh, by the way, when you said that a 1% chance of him being hostile made you perform an action that has a much higher chance of turning a potentially deadly alien into an enemy... so damn stupid. I so wanted to hit you in the face."

 

"Try it."

 

"Give me a break. Even if I wasn't playing Rod Sterling for a day..."

 

"That's Serling," Superman corrected.

 

"Fine. Even if I wasn't playing Rod Serling for a day, you don't know my abilities and you haven't made preparations to handle me, so you're hosed." Craig answered. “But for now you’re going to stop being an emotionally stunted three year old and listen to me as I explain everything Luthor’s done to set up this fight. Also, to cut to he chase and quote the Brady Bunch, Martha, Martha, Martha.”

 

“Wasn’t that Marcia?” Superman wondered.

 

“Details, Details,” Thundrax chided dismissively. “And as long as I’m here…” Craig concentrated and the sky cleared. Batman shielded his eyes. “Man, no wonder you’re all angry and depressed. This palette makes Caprice look cheery and wholesome.”

 

“What’s Caprice?” Superman again wondered.

 

“Shut up. I’m talking.” Craig snapped, and he explained to Batman everything Luthor had done to set up the climactic showdown. He could see Batman's face drop by the end of the very long explanation. “Some detective you are. You still want to fight, Luthor’s bitch?”

 

Batman said nothing.

 

“Good. Now, bad CGI Doomsday is on his way, so don’t throw out the Kryptonite spear, give it to Wonder Woman instead, she’s tough enough to handle it, not to mention Amazon training. Okay, I think I’ve done enough for you two morons. This thing is almost as dumb as Thundrax the movie, and that’s saying a lot. But remember you two. Adult yourself. Testosterone can be controlled.”

 

With that, Craig stepped back out of the picture and returned to his seat, smiling in deep satisfaction. Sean Doerksen dumped his popcorn on the Canadian hero and, hands on his hips, shouted angrily at the Canadian.

 

“That was the best fight scene ever and you ruined it!” He paused to hyperventilate. “Never take a superhero to see a superhero movie! You’re worse than dad!”

 

Craig settled back in his seat and chuckled, drinking in the dirty looks of the rest of the audience.

I love the bit about Rod Sterling. My mom says Rod Sterling all the time and it drives me up the *bleep* wall.

[Nolgroth]

Okay, I confess to being both surprised and maybe even a little bit puzzled by that. How does one swim in the waters of our popular culture without acquiring a fairly solid grasp (far more than a mere passing familiarity) with the core concepts that drive Superman and Batman, the most well-known superheroes ever created?

 

Well I got the whole "Truth, Justice and the American Way" thing. I sort of got the whole "No guns and no killing" thing. To truly understand a character, you have to have been fortunate enough to read as much written material on that character is possible. I have never read a Superman comic. For Batman, I read Dark Knight Returns, Holy Terror, and whatever the one was that Jason Todd got pummeled in. I've never read a mainstream Batman, Detective, or Justice League issue ever. My only exposure to Superman was the Christopher Reeve Superman and the hokey Superfriends cartoon back in the day. Movies and the cheesy TV show from the 60's was my primary familiarity with Batman. It is directly because of Superfriends and the 60's Batman that I stayed away from comic books in general and when I did start collecting, the reason why I stayed away from DC. So I sort of have their stated motto's but not the kind of understanding that drives and motivates them. Only a fan that has consistently read their titles could get that.

 

I also guess that I believed their motivations were driven more by the Comics Code Authority than by a "realistic" portrayal of the characters.

 

So yeah, I know about as much as the average Joe on the street about them, but the proverbial average Joe doesn't break down the intricate details. He knows that Superman "does good," is super strong, has a plethora of other abilities like Heat Vision and Superbreath, can fly, and is vulnerable to Kryptonite. If that Joe also watched the Smallville series, he might know that different colors of Kryptonite have different effects on Superman. Or that could have been a conceit of Smallville itself. The same Joe, in regards to Batman, might scoff at Batman's refusal to but a bullet in Joker's head. I certainly did. He might also wonder why almost none of the good movies have a Robin in them. But we average Joe's don't have (or necessarily even want) the benefit of having immersed themselves in a character study that probably last hundreds (maybe thousands) of published comic book issues.

[zslane]

Your man-on-the-street knowledge of Superman and Batman is precisely what I'm talking about, actually. The essential core of these characters has crystalized into the form that the non-comics reading public recognizes today. In effect, our popular culture has distilled their essences into simplified avatars, and sifted out all the random experiments that never really worked over the decades of experimentation in the comics. To my mind, all those hundreds of issues of published comics you refer to are largely noise, burying the signal that is the core essence of these characters.

[Old Man]

Unless a given person is only familiar with Superman from Snyder films.

[Bazza]

It occurs to me that BvS is a portent of things to come ie prophesy.

[Nolgroth]

I think that fans of any given character see more to that character than a casual observer would. That's the core of my argument. Superman doing good does not preclude him from having to weigh the many (crowd) versus the one (Zod) in my mind. As I am seeing from his fans here and on YouTube, the very idea that Superman kills is anathema to his concept. That's where the distinction is. I have zero problems with the chicken wringing scene. Fans have a huge problem with it.

[Pattern Ghost]

My wife isn't a comics fan and only has a passing familiarity with the characters. She likes comic book movies and TV shows (and other SF and fantasy shows and books, etc.), but has never been a comic fan. She also had absolutely no problem with the Zod neck snap.

 

Of course, on Vampire Diaries, that's pretty much how the vampire characters greet each other, so the constant staccato of snap-snap-snappity-snap-snap is something she's used to. (She's had her fill of vampire fiction of all media, though. Got a bit saturated with vampire and werewolf stuff over the last couple decades.)

[Nolgroth]

I remember when vampires and werewolves were something I looked forward to. Now they have way over-saturated the market. We need something new. I'm guessing cryptids will replace them.

[Lord Liaden]

I miss when some vampires and werewolves were actual, y'know, monsters, to be feared and destroyed. Not tragic, misunderstood, angsty emo romantic fan-fic figures.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah as I've said many times before, people who don't like Superman loved the new movies.  People who were actual fans, hated them.

 

Its like having a James Bond movie where he's a boat rental agent in Hawaii who has adventures saving sharks from nets and its all exciting and epic.  People who know nothing about James Bond might love it but fans will yell what the hell was that crap???

 

You can make the movies Snyder made, just don't make them about established characters with over a half century of lore.  

Its okay to make some changes for the shift in media and your story.  Thor without red hair?  OK, meh.  Thor without a hammer, from Brazil, who solves crimes with his buddies Rick and TC in a helicopter?  No.

[BoloOfEarth]

I can already hear the Tom Selleck voiceover.  "I knowest what thou art thinking..."

 

And Higgins.  "Thor Magnum, I would have words with thee!"

[Christopher]

That's uncalled for. People having differing tastes doesn't make them stupid.

Then stop purposefully miss-interpreting it every other sentence:

 

I could've lived with a Superman movie where Superman is eventually placed in a situation where he is forced to kill someone. That alone wouldn't have "ruined" MoS for me if the movie up to that point had been any damn good. But they lost me at Letting Pa Kent Die By Tornado Because I'm An Emo Chickenshit.

No, becasue Pa Kent wanted to give him enough time to grow up and decide for himself if he wanted to reveal himself.

This is exactly what I meant with not turning off your brains. The video establishes the reason for 10 minutes. You say "I was bored, so I make up a reason that runs 180° counter to the stated one".

That is not hating it because it is bad, that was having decided to hate it before you even watched it.

Then looking for incredibly flimsy excuses like this to justify that hate. For me that argumentation is as flimsy as the one of Creationists, except they at least picked a position that is impossible to disproove.

For you I need a single line from the Movie. That his how bad your position is.

 

Yes, but then he did have to snap Zod's neck. So not only was Superman's CvK wrong, the moral is that he should have just killed Zod at the outset, sparing Metropolis hundreds of casualties and billions in damage, and sparing the audience about an hour and a half.

 

 

Showing that Superman fails if he tries to not kill is not what Superman movies should be about. Had I taken my kids to see MoS, I wouldn't just be rolling my eyes at it, I'd be actively pissed off.

 

 

I'd like to think that it's possible to write a Superman movie without a Nietzchian plot that still sells tickets. In fact it might even sell more tickets. Maybe they'll try it one day.

He did ban 95% of all Kryptonians to the Phantom Zone. Sacrificing the Ghost of his father (together with the key that contained it) to do so.

 

You mean that movie where he was fighting overwhelming odds, outnumbered by 3 Kryptonians destroying a city so he allowed himself to be appear cowardly in order to save lives then defeated his enemies without killing them?

Let's sum the 2nd Film up:

He had a Depowering Chekovs Gun that he used on himself.

Then he somehow found a repowering Chekhovs Gun.

Then he tricked the villains into being around while he reversed the polarity on the Depowering Checkhovs Gun,

Also he threw the shield from hist chest somehow (I dunno, maybe cryptonian tech? How he manifested his super telekinesis?)

 

The "just make some Power/Chekovs Gun up" so he never needed to change was only interesting while I was under 20:

 

Since they are so overwhelmingly awesome, when have you actually last watched those old films, while you were not a kid/watched it with your kids? I mean how many decades? Let's do that right now. They should be findable on youtube. I watch them. You watch them too, then we can come back and tell what was all good about it.

[Christopher]

Can't find the Movies right now, but here are few Honest Trailers about them:

 

 

 

 

I am the first to admit they were fun as a Kid.

But as a Kid I did not bat an eyelash about "flying so fast around the planet to turn back time, yet not to fsat enough to catch both missiles"(1), "throwing his S" (2), "Super Amnesia Kiss" (2), "Wall of China Repair Beam" (4), "a sentient supercomputer that somehow lacks basic Chemistry knowledge"(3) and "squeezing coal so hard it turns into diamonds"(3).

And those are only the mistakes I have not supressed utterly.