DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[zslane]

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc-films-justice-league-1202632214/

[Hermit]

7 minutes ago, zslane said:

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc-films-justice-league-1202632214/

 

The URL seems to send me back to here. Which is fine. Nice folks here.

[Ternaugh]

Try this:

 

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc-films-justice-league-1202632214

[slikmar]

From the above link:

An early version, directed by Zack Snyder, alarmed studio executives with its dark tone. That had been the knock on Snyder’s two previous DC films, “Man of Steel” and “Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.”

 

Hopefully, with the disappointment of JL, they will continue the swing WW and the modifications to JL that people seem to like started. They are looking to replace the guy running the movie direction. Might I suggest getting someone who has dealt with comics before. Geoff Johns is still there as creative director, but maybe they should throw a boatload of money at Dini or something.

[Hermit]

Honestly, they should beg Patty Jenkins to take over, because right now "From the Director who brought you Wonder Woman" is something that might have folks put money down for a DC movie

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do like the idea of a Flashpoint type story with the Flash rebooting the DC universe.  Erase the Snyder films and restart, doing the characters right. I mean right now the Batman mythos is a wreck: how old is he?  When did the films take place?  What incarnation is he?  Is Superman v Batman before or after Bane destroyed Gotham?  

[zslane]

As long as the DCEU movies continue to be a patchwork of disconnected ideas, the entire franchise will remain a mess, drawing little more than lukewarm audience enthusiasm. I suspect that if Flashpoint is used to reboot the DCEU and open the door to yet more cast and timeline changes, it will exhaust what little tolerance the public has for the franchise and its incoherency.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Another option would be to stop pretending its a shared universe with a timeline and just tell stories.  Who cares about conflicts or cast changes then, its just a Superman movie, not the next step toward JL2.

[bigdamnhero]

4 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

Try this:

 

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/dc-films-justice-league-1202632214

Called it.

 

2 hours ago, zslane said:

As long as the DCEU movies continue to be a patchwork of disconnected ideas, the entire franchise will remain a mess, drawing little more than lukewarm audience enthusiasm.

IMO, the problem wasn't that they were disconnected, the problem was the stuff connecting them sucked.

[Spence]

18 minutes ago, bigdamnhero said:

 

IMO, the problem wasn't that they were disconnected, the problem was the stuff connecting them sucked.

 

Not just that.  Characters personalities and action for the Hero types like Superman completely missed the source material.  I don't know about JL Superman, but other versions replaced the Hero with Dead Beat Dad Man, Casual Killer Man, Angst Man and so on.  But no Superman. 

 

Others may disagree and probably do.  But IMO many of the so called "edgy" story arcs in the 90s and later that "explored the characters" weren't edgy at all.  They were craptacular missteps by hacks desperate to be relevant.  I still remember a story arc I call Hilter Superman.  Don't know the real name because I don't usually remember the really crappy stuff, but I do remember it had a lot of people defending it because they were "cool". 

 

If they want to save the DCEU then they should portray the Heroes like they were portrayed when the characters were popular.  Not rewrite them to be as messed up as regular people are.  

 

 

[Old Man]

The more I read about the situation between the MCU and the DCU, the main difference is Feige, who is actually a comics fan and has an excellent grounding in the source material.  There is no Feige running the DC films.  I know some people hate him for some reason but I think Abrams would do a decent job if he were given a movie to make rather than a movie to fix.

[Lord Liaden]

I saw a commentator recently who pointed out that in eras when people are worried about what's going on in the world around them (and present day probably qualifies), audiences of various entertainments are generally desirous of escape to fictional worlds which are more hopeful, more optimistic, and more fun, than their reality. Dark and edgy stories and characters certainly have their place, even in comic-book movies -- consider the success of this year's Logan, for example -- but I believe there's a hunger for positivism in audiences today, based on the reception of most Marvel movies, and the recent Wonder Woman. That will likely be the trend for the foreseeable future.

[Lord Liaden]

10 minutes ago, Old Man said:

The more I read about the situation between the MCU and the DCU, the main difference is Feige, who is actually a comics fan and has an excellent grounding in the source material.  There is no Feige running the DC films.  I know some people hate him for some reason but I think Abrams would do a decent job if he were given a movie to make rather than a movie to fix.

 

And another commentator broke down one of the key differences between the Marvel and DC movies, as being the former having a unified vision from the top down of where the whole franchise is headed, and a parent studio committed to providing the means to successfully implement that vision; whereas at DC the creators of specific properties have been allowed to follow their own visions, while disputes and infighting between studio executives has pulled the franchise in contrasting directions and diluted the resulting product even more.

[Starlord]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I saw a commentator recently who pointed out that in eras when people are worried about what's going on in the world around them (and present day probably qualifies), audiences of various entertainments are generally desirous of escape to fictional worlds which are more hopeful, more optimistic, and more fun, than their reality. Dark and edgy stories and characters certainly have their place, even in comic-book movies -- consider the success of this year's Logan, for example -- but I believe there's a hunger for positivism in audiences today, based on the reception of most Marvel movies, and the recent Wonder Woman. That will likely be the trend for the foreseeable future.

 

Well, unlike the Affleck Batman, the Logan story also worked because it was essentially a standalone movie and was an inevitable and natural arc for the character as he is generally known and was written.  Wolverine has a lot of fans and all those fans understand that the character "has a decent heart, but is also a berserker who is often a casual killer".  There are many instances where Cyclops, Cap and others have to physically stop him from murder.

[Spence]

6 hours ago, Starlord said:

 

Well, unlike the Affleck Batman, the Logan story also worked because it was essentially a standalone movie and was an inevitable and natural arc for the character as he is generally known and was written.  Wolverine has a lot of fans and all those fans understand that the character "has a decent heart, but is also a berserker who is often a casual killer".  There are many instances where Cyclops, Cap and others have to physically stop him from murder.

 

For me that is mixing issues.  We know Wolverine is not "hero" in the good guy sense.  Any more than Batman is a boy scout and not a vigilante.  That is expected because that was and is their concepts. 

 

The issue is that DC seems to be hell bent in making all heroes into dark vigilantes. 

 

If I kill Evil Villain X right now evil is vanquished forever. Or I can save the 50 kids on the school bus. 

 

The hero will save the bus

DC will say "huh? What bus" wink wink

 

If the character is a hero portray as heroes.

If they are a vigilante or just plain villain, then fine do that.

But quit crossing the streams.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Spence
mobile hell

[slikmar]

Or, you can have good writing if you want it both ways and get Logan, where you save the kids AND kill the evil villain X.

[Jagged]

I think at least part of the problem is that DCs "grim dark" isn't that great a version of grim dark either. 

 

There was more resonance to Tony Stark wanting to kill Bucky than there was with anything from the DC universe. IMO of course ;-) 

[bigdamnhero]

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

...whereas at DC the creators of specific properties have been allowed to follow their own visions, while disputes and infighting between studio executives has pulled the franchise in contrasting directions and diluted the resulting product even more.

I confess I don't really see that. With the obvious exception of Wonder Woman, I feel like all the DCEU movies since MOS have very much been following Snyder's "vision". And the only executive meddling I've heard about seem to be the studio trying to tone down Snyder by splicing in jokes and such based on the reception to BvS & SS.

 

1 hour ago, Jagged said:

I think at least part of the problem is that DCs "grim dark" isn't that great a version of grim dark either.

This right here. It's not my personal preference, but you could absolutely make a good grimdark superhero movie. But "tone" aside, the Snydermurderverse films have been incoherent messes on all sort of levels.

 

9 hours ago, Starlord said:

Well, unlike the Affleck Batman, the Logan story also worked because it was essentially a standalone movie...

I think this is also a key point. People like a little bit of grimdark now and then, but it doesn't make for a good franchise that people want to return to over and over.

[zslane]

In order to duplicate Marvel's success, you need:

 

1. A long-term vision and the patience to execute it slowly and organically, one franchise movie at a time.

2. A pool of writers and directors who understand and respect the characters and the source material that birthed them.

3. A creative director who understands and respects the source material, and has a strong enough personality to corral all the egos to conform to a singular vision.

4. A studio who fully supports the creative director, giving him the authority to see the singular vision through, even at the (potential) expense of the above-the-line talent (i.e., Fiege is ultimately more powerful than RDJ or Joss Whedon).

 

WB/DC has none of those things. How anyone expected them to duplicate Marvel's success is beyond me.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Dark Knight Rises The Dark Knight* was a good grim dark film.  It was tough and hard and dark, but entertaining, fun, and the hero ultimately wins.  That's how you do it, if you're going to do it.  But like others have said before, they figured everything had to be Batman, while running in fear from the atrocious Green Lantern and goofy Batman TV show.

 

So they learned all the wrong lessons.  And the results have been tragic.  I would love to see a great DC universe out there along with Marvel, something to really enjoy.  Especially since, otherwise, they seem to be committed to basic hero themes such as costumes and code names, secret identities, etc.

[zslane]

The third Nolan film was atrocious, precisely because the main character resembled Batman in appearance only. His methods were about as un-Batman-like as you could imagine.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I had the name wrong, should have been just The Dark Knight.

 

Dark Knight Rises was terrible.  Bad as Iron Man 3.  Bad as Thor 2.

[Cassandra]

Affleck out as Batman.

 

Flash movie in jeopardy.

 

Justice League the 23rd most popular superhero movie, behind Guardians of the Galaxy.

 

Zack Snyder maybe be paid to stay the hell away of all future DC movies.

 

Director explains "It was raining, there was a hurricane, locusts, it's not my fault  .  .  . "

 

[slikmar]

2 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

"It was raining, there was a hurricane, locusts, it's not my fault  .  .  . "

I think that sums up Snyder's vision of the world perfectly. Sadly, without John Belushi to add humor to the statement.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like Snyder as a director, he's very skilled and has a great vision.  He just needs to work on properties that fit that vision.  I mean as much as I respect Clint Eastwood as a director I don't want him making zany comedies.  Put Snyder on stuff like Doom Patrol, and he'll do fine.