Enforcer84 Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 I think Marvel was my first brush with Thor, but I read greek mythology very early on. I remember being surprised Thor wasn't depicted as blond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 I am 100% sure that there are many people who have enough familiarity with Norse mythology to have heard of Thor, Odin and Loki and would even if comic book Thor had never existed. Norse mythology is not quite as big as Greek mythology in the popular mind but it is still plenty big. For any editor listening to a "Let's let a Norse goddess headline for a while" pitch. Nah. For a Marvel Editor, maybe. But again, Marketing and Lawyers. Actually, I see your argument is correct, you were referring to Marvel's editors, not necessarily comic book fans, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 For me it was Bullfinchs. I ate those tales up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I first learned of them in Edith Hamilton's Mythology. But, then, I was a weird ten year old. Of course, the next "source" for Norse Myths that I read was Deities & Demigods. Which included bare-midriff snow-bunny Freya... Bullfinch's for me. I read it repeatedly in grade school. I got a bit confused about the "Rape of Peresphone" illustration. The parental units had to do some explaining to me so I wouldn't casually toss that word around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 For me it was Bullfinchs. I ate those tales up Jinx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Looks like Skadi already has a comic. Interesting take on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Nah. For a Marvel Editor, maybe. But again, Marketing and Lawyers. Actually, I see your argument is correct, you were referring to Marvel's editors, not necessarily comic book fans, correct? Well yes and no. Any individual comic book fan might like anything. I mean me, I'd love a good Skadi comic but I like obscure mythological deities better than the well-known ones which why I keep mentioning Cloacina. I pay tribute to the Hipster Goddess. But more fans will be attracted to a familiar name, turned off by an unpronounceable one, lack interest in a derivative and generic power set and so forth. And so for their purposes, no, Marvel doesn't have lots of Norse goddesses to choose from, even if they bothered to do more research than reading a book of mythology for children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Would the girls in ABBA be considered Norse goddesses? gewing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Would the girls in ABBA be considered Norse goddesses? During the 70s, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Well yes and no. Any individual comic book fan might like anything. I mean me, I'd love a good Skadi comic but I like obscure mythological deities better than the well-known ones which why I keep mentioning Cloacina. I pay tribute to the Hipster Goddess. But more fans will be attracted to a familiar name, turned off by an unpronounceable one, lack interest in a derivative and generic power set and so forth. And so for their purposes, no, Marvel doesn't have lots of Norse goddesses to choose from, even if they bothered to do more research than reading a book of mythology for children. ok then I can still disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Just to be a myth geek... While modern readers typically treat the Norse pantheon as a codified and organized mythic structure and pantheon, that was really the result of a mostly post-pagan written record. Different gods had different precedence among different tribes and countries. Some didn't appear at all in some regions. People talk about odinism / wodenism, which was very widespread, but it wasn't universally the dominant mode faith in all places. Indeed, in Sweden, the cult of the twins, Freyr and Freya, was the dominant cult. Odin, while important, was a johnny come lately and something of an interloper. So much so that, when Swedish Christians in the 14th and 15th century expressed concern about competition from paganism in their writing, Odin and Thor et al aren't noted. Yet, the cults of Freyr and Freya were still prominent enough in private, household worship that they were called out as cause for concern. I have wondered, in the past, whether the war of the Vanir and Aesir, which was settled by marriage, is really a reflection of ancient tribal warfare and blending - not just in blood, but in cult and belief. I knew a person from Scandinavia more than 20 years ago whose family still had a personal connection/heritage/worship of Tyr. And I think you might be on to something with your observation about the war between the Vanir & Aesir being about ancient tribal warfare. I first learned of them in Edith Hamilton's Mythology. I'm currently reading Edith Hamilton's The Echo of Greece and last year read The Greek Way. I thoroughly enjoyed The Greek Way and am just as much enjoying The Echo of Greece. Although your comment quoted above is not a recommendation, I'm going to treat it as one and get a copy of Edith Hamilton's mythology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I think people misconstrued my comment about Elba being The Gunslinger. I have no problem with him being black, I just didn't picture him as English. I always got the feeling the character (correctly described as gunfighter/cowboy/samurai) as being American Midwestern or Southwestern (perhaps even Hispanic). Hence why I said Elba, who is an excellent actor, may be able to pull it off. John Cleese has shown an amazing ability to do various american accents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I've always thought British and Aussie actors do better American accents than Americans do British or Aussie accents. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 On a calmer day, the reason I dislike the new "Nancy Drew" casting is that it was apparently an ultimatum. "She will be a minority." Finding a great actress for the part is a minority I wouldn't mind. Stating outright that it has to be a minority, that bugs me I haven't decided about the older age and making her a police detective part, but it does seem to change the whole character foundation. Also, she did use a pistol in the older stories apparently. I agree with the other comment Spiderman is Peter Parker and Peter Parker is Spider Man. The writers have deliberately, it seems, tried to destroy some of the foundations of what Peter Parker always has been. Then they kill them off and replace him. This does not sit well with me, and seem to be a very very cheap marketing ploy at best. Almost as bad as the Death of Superman comic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 On a calmer day, the reason I dislike the new "Nancy Drew" casting is that it was apparently an ultimatum. "She will be a minority." Finding a great actress for the part is a minority I wouldn't mind. Stating outright that it has to be a minority, that bugs me I haven't decided about the older age and making her a police detective part, but it does seem to change the whole character foundation. Also, she did use a pistol in the older stories apparently. I agree with the other comment Spiderman is Peter Parker and Peter Parker is Spider Man. The writers have deliberately, it seems, tried to destroy some of the foundations of what Peter Parker always has been. Then they kill them off and replace him. This does not sit well with me, and seem to be a very very cheap marketing ploy at best. Almost as bad as the Death of Superman comic. They've told all the Peter Parker stories they know. The rest is getting money from the IP. Let him retire and die. Let it end. Be merciful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 The Peter Parker they killed off was pretty redundant. Just the same guy again, which isn't really making proper use of an alternate universe. bigbywolfe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 No we don't. The list of usable Norse goddesses starts and ends with Freya. I was thinking in broad myth terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 Sif, Frigga, Eir, Nanna, Hel, Hlin, Idunn, Lofn, Not, Ran, Skadi....what do you use to define "usable"? To be fair, although I didn't mention it, I was thinking on broad terms not just the Norse pantheon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I thought the X movies were decent, except X3 and the solo wolverine stuff. I know some people can't fathom a 6'2" Wolverine for example. However, I think watching a 5' Wolverine onscreen would be comparable to watching Yoda's first lightsaber battle. Well, thanks to the comics, the only Wolverine I want to see is one being flung into an alternate (and dead) dimension never to be seen again. (though the writers would just re-imagine his healing factor and especially his titanium claws having some uber-ability to rip a new one in dimensional fabric, damn writers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I mean "usable as a lead superheroine in Marvel comics". In order to be that, she must first of all have a name the English speakers can easily pronounce. So you can forget characters like Hlin, Thrudr, and Lofn. She should appear in relatively well known myths so her recognizability can be used and she can inspire the writer. So not Nott, Nanna, Eir... She should be the actual goddess of something. Sif is the goddess of "being Thor's wife and Loki's victim". Great, this has led to her superheroic niche being "one of Thor's girlfriends", and her exciting superpower of "being a generic Asgardian". Yay. She shouldn't be the goddess of something that can't really be used to fight bad guys in a non-ridiculous way. Idunn is the goddess of youth. What's she going to do, turn bad guys into babies? She should not be a mythological villain. So not Hel, goddess of death, and not Ran, goddess of drowning at sea. Skadi almost qualifies. She at least has a myth, although it consists of nothing but skiing to Asgard and launching a formal complaint. But really she's only got the makings of a villain or a secondary character. I would like to see her though. I can see her now sliding along on Iceman style ice-slides while shooting arrows made of ice that explode to freeze things. I can work with Ran. Just all the standard water powers, would have to be salt-water based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I never venture beyond the sphere of entertainment...the master says the radiation levels are too high. I stay in the sphere of entertainment because reality is scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I'm not sure many people would have heard of Thor and Odin were it not for Marvel. Indeed. Although, it is a foreign concept in today's age, something like that has always spurred me to LEARN about (insert in blank). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 For whom? You're projecting an awful lot. I am probably as well. Sif has been around Marvel since the 60's. As have Amora the Enchantress, and Lorelai (ok maybe 80's for Lorelai) so making the goddesses whole cloth is no problem. Sigyn has been around (Loki's long suffering wife) since 1978. Frigga has been in the Marvel Universe for decades as well. I guess I'm not seeing your point. I don't care that Thor's a woman, it's happened before in Earth X. As has Mortal, Frog, Unable to Heal, Mortal again, Dead, dressed in drag to fool a giant...(wait that's not Marvel)...but Thor isn't the only Asgardian Marvel has used. He is their flagship so naturally their first choice because editors are weak ineffectual creatures bound to marketing and lawyers. Yeah, whenever I hear that story about fooling the giant, I envision a giant that looks like Elmer Fudd and while attempting to kiss THor gets cracked in the head by Mjolnir(think about some Looney Tunes episodes if you are confused) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkness Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I think there is a difference between trying to be PC and trying to make movies that include characters that the viewers will relate to. When the 'Golden Age', and 'Silver Age' both were periods where marketing was mainly toward white folk, the characters from these eras who have had decades to gather diehard followings are going to mostly be white, and any new characters are stuck competing against these as the foundational source material. I see no betrayal by taking characters from a period where depiction of race was, at best, fairly weak, and changing them. Literally, it's not like the entire Justice League and all the characters and supporting characters in the story are being changed to another race, it's actually addressing that exact thing being done in the first place to fit the times. Introducing some minority Justice League member who the other's have seniority on would be a rather weak approach. And WWI or WWII for Wonder Woman makes no difference to me. Why would the Olympians even consider them a separate war? And Freya has no name recognition value as far as marketing a big movie. If you can sell Ant Man, you can sell a any of a number of the goddesses, though pronunciation probably will be an issue(and don't kid yourself, most of the money made on that film was not from die hard Ant Man fans, if there were that many die hard fans, Ant Man would pretty much always have been an ongoing comic series with staying power). In what circles wide enough to pay off a movie budget can everyone name who Freya is? And finally, just to muddy things, the first three X-Men movies were entertaining at the time they came out in exactly the same way other blockbuster action movies were, for the same reason, the level of special effects and action filming that had not grown stale yet, as these things always do. For repeated viewings, they have had the same issues. And I loved Watchmen, except for the fight choreography, which, though outstanding, was thematically totally NOT Watchmen, with the possible exception of the alleyway fight between the KTs and Nite Owl and Silk Spectre. The other fights had the actual fights from the comics, buried in glossy, though excellent, choreography, which took from the dark grit of the comic. And when Comedian jumps off of Archie to take on the mob by himself, I die a little, every time. Overchoreographing required the last fight with Ozymandius to go three steps further to stay ahead of all the other fights, which meant, at the moment he caught the bullet, anyone would assume he could do it. I'll just end by saying that all my above points are clearly right, and so there is no need for us to continue this discussion. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted January 23, 2016 Report Share Posted January 23, 2016 I, of course, will have to re-read your post to see if you disagree with me on anything. In which case I will know you are wrong about always being right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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