DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

There aren't.  If it fits the concept, any character can take a 20-point limitation in exchange for restrictions on the special effects available to his/her abilities, and an impediment to future stat increases.  It's like asking why Thor has to take OAF on his lightning powers and Storm doesn't.

 

Apparently he doesn't any more. At least in the movies.

 

And neither does Black Lightning. Just to get back in the topical universe.

[drunkonduty]

But is the show any good? (Black Lightning, that is.)

[Greywind]

Batman

STR: 25

DEX: 30

CON: 20

Body: 12

INT: 32

Ego: 20

PRE: 43

COM: 18

PD: 15

ED: 15

SPD: 9

REC: 9

END: 40

Stun: 35

 

[Old Man]

3 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

But is the show any good? (Black Lightning, that is.)

 

It’s supposed to be surprisingly good. I’ve only seen the first episode, which was promising. 

[Pattern Ghost]

I thought the show was going to take a turn toward the stupid about halfway through, but it turned out it just got better. I'd recommend it.

[Doc Shadow]

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

Batman

STR: 25

DEX: 30

CON: 20

Body: 12

INT: 32

Ego: 20

PRE: 43

COM: 18

PD: 15

ED: 15

SPD: 9

REC: 9

END: 40

Stun: 35

 

 

And a ton of Combat Luck (only vs. superpowered attacks).

[Greywind]

That's his stat block conversion from DC Heroes to Hero. Don't have access to all my DC Heroes stuff, so not looking to go into his powers.

[RDU Neil]

9 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

But is the show any good? (Black Lightning, that is.)

 

Highly recommended. Best straight up superhero show that manages to tread the gritty street crime feel and the truly superheroic wonderfully well. On top of that it actually has great writing and acting.

[zslane]

9 hours ago, Greywind said:

Batman

STR: 25

DEX: 30

CON: 20

Body: 12

INT: 32

Ego: 20

PRE: 43

COM: 18

PD: 15

ED: 15

SPD: 9

REC: 9

END: 40

Stun: 35

 

 

Maybe I'm applying 4e standards here, but in my view a 25 STR, a 30 DEX, and a 32 INT make Batman superhuman. Bob Kane is rolling in his grave...

 

(Note: the world record for deadlift is 472kg, which is about a 21 STR, and that's probably a 16 STR pushing for +5 STR. Sorry, but Batman is not the world deadlift record-holder in any universe.)

[Cassandra]

CW does seem to do DC characters right for the most part.  There are a lot of Easter Eggs as well.

 

Of course it doesn't keep Flash and Arrow to follow the same pattern each season.  Flash will be up against an invincible villain and then find an easy way to take him down after one of his friends is killed, and Arrow will go up against an untouchable villain, alienate those around him, make the wrong decision, and then has to fight the villain one on one.

[Cassandra]

And you don't see Lena Luthor cutting off people's heads no matter how evil the Villainess is (I'm looking at you, Agents of SHIELD).

[assault]

Accidental post.

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, zslane said:

 

Maybe I'm applying 4e standards here, but in my view a 25 STR, a 30 DEX, and a 32 INT make Batman superhuman. Bob Kane is rolling in his grave...

 

(Note: the world record for deadlift is 472kg, which is about a 21 STR, and that's probably a 16 STR pushing for +5 STR. Sorry, but Batman is not the world deadlift record-holder in any universe.)

 

We've gone seven decades beyond Bob Kane, though. You have to consider what Batman is show to do today, which is what people expect.

 

 

There's no way he could have done the above without pushing the limit of what's humanly possible in almost every category.

[zslane]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

We've gone seven decades beyond Bob Kane, though. You have to consider what Batman is show to do today, which is what people expect.

 

There's no way he could have done the above without pushing the limit of what's humanly possible in almost every category.

 

Sure, and that's why I mentioned the natural evolution of his tech to coincide with the advancing technology of the times. But when you make him superhuman you fundamentally alter his character concept, which is a different thing all together, and if that's what people expect, then they are expecting a character development trajectory that I find profoundly flawed.

 

Incidentally, pushing the limits and exceeding them (in a way only superhumans can) are two different things. I don't have a problem with Batman pushing up against the limits of human capability, but at the end of the day he is still made of unenhanced bone, muscle, and sinew, and his actions should reflect that. As I said, it's when you throw him in with demi-gods and aliens that can move planets that you find writers pressured to turn Batman into something he simply is not.

[Ranxerox]

16 hours ago, Greywind said:

Batman

STR: 25

DEX: 30

CON: 20

Body: 12

INT: 32

Ego: 20

PRE: 43

COM: 18

PD: 15

ED: 15

SPD: 9

REC: 9

END: 40

Stun: 35

 

 

11 hours ago, Greywind said:

That's his stat block conversion from DC Heroes to Hero. Don't have access to all my DC Heroes stuff, so not looking to go into his powers.

 

With the exception of Speed, these stats aren't a bad representation of Batman.  The 9 Speed, however, is ridiculous.  Depending on the campaigns level of Dex/Speed inflation, I could justify giving Batman a Speed of anywhere from 4 to 7. However, Regardless of campaign, only speedsters should have ever have 9 Speeds.  

 

Though, if I remember right, DC Heroes didn't have a stat directly analogous to Speed, so the conversion probably is estimating it off one or more combat stats.  As Batman would have had fantastic combat stats, the conversion just got a bit carried away with the Speed, I'm guessing.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 4:29 PM, assault said:

 

Batman is also physically tougher and faster than most other superheroes (and villains). If he is forced to be within the NCM limits, so should they be.

 

This bunches everyone into an arbitrary narrow range without any obvious benefit to the game. It clearly wasn't the intention of the game's designers, who provided us with plenty of examples of "normal" characters outside that range.

 

NCM was designed for non-superheroic genres. It is, in my opinion, misapplied when it is used in superheroic games.

 

Holding Bats to NCM should mean that all characters have to fall within normal human limits outside of superhuman abilities.  Bats can do well at 20 DEX, 7  OCV/DCV and 4 SPD if we establish that other characters have lower DEX. CV and SPD.  What about Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman or the Atom suggests they have DEX. CV or SPD at Batman's level, much less superhuman.  Bats acts at least as often as Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter.  Flash should have higher DEX and SPD, but Bats should outclass him in STR and CON.

 

As soon as Hero established 23 DEX, 8 base CV and 5 SPD as "baseline comic book character", any ability to set "highly trained normal" at 20 DEX, 4 SPD vanished. 

 

 

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:52 PM, Old Man said:

 

There aren't.  If it fits the concept, any character can take a 20-point limitation in exchange for restrictions on the special effects available to his/her abilities, and an impediment to future stat increases.  It's like asking why Thor has to take OAF on his lightning powers and Storm doesn't.

 

If Batman can get Complication points for "Stats above here cost double", why can't Storm and Thor have a Complication for "no psychic powers"?  If restrictions on how points can be spent are legit complications, why does it apply to only one small subset of spending options? 

 

For that matter, why should Storm , or Cyclops, or most Supers, not have NCM?  There is nothing "super" about their characteristics in the comics.

[Ternaugh]

34 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Holding Bats to NCM should mean that all characters have to fall within normal human limits outside of superhuman abilities.  Bats can do well at 20 DEX, 7  OCV/DCV and 4 SPD if we establish that other characters have lower DEX. CV and SPD.  What about Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman or the Atom suggests they have DEX. CV or SPD at Batman's level, much less superhuman.  Bats acts at least as often as Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter.  Flash should have higher DEX and SPD, but Bats should outclass him in STR and CON.

 

As soon as Hero established 23 DEX, 8 base CV and 5 SPD as "baseline comic book character", any ability to set "highly trained normal" at 20 DEX, 4 SPD vanished. 

 

 

 

If Batman can get Complication points for "Stats above here cost double", why can't Storm and Thor have a Complication for "no psychic powers"?  If restrictions on how points can be spent are legit complications, why does it apply to only one small subset of spending options? 

 

For that matter, why should Storm , or Cyclops, or most Supers, not have NCM?  There is nothing "super" about their characteristics in the comics.

 

Welcome to the NGD, where everything's made up, and the points don't matter.

[Greywind]

5 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

 

 

With the exception of Speed, these stats aren't a bad representation of Batman.  The 9 Speed, however, is ridiculous.  Depending on the campaigns level of Dex/Speed inflation, I could justify giving Batman a Speed of anywhere from 4 to 7. However, Regardless of campaign, only speedsters should have ever have 9 Speeds.  

 

Though, if I remember right, DC Heroes didn't have a stat directly analogous to Speed, so the conversion probably is estimating it off one or more combat stats.  As Batman would have had fantastic combat stats, the conversion just got a bit carried away with the Speed, I'm guessing.

 

 

SPD in the conversion is based off of Initiative. Basic Initiative for a normal is 6. Batman's, including the effect from Martial Arts, is a 42.

[Pattern Ghost]

19 minutes ago, Greywind said:

SPD in the conversion is based off of Initiative. Basic Initiative for a normal is 6. Batman's, including the effect from Martial Arts, is a 42. 

 

I haven't looked at the system in forever. Does Initiative determine the number of actions/attacks a character can take in a round?

[Ninja-Bear]

18 hours ago, zslane said:

 

Maybe I'm applying 4e standards here, but in my view a 25 STR, a 30 DEX, and a 32 INT make Batman superhuman. Bob Kane is rolling in his grave...

 

(Note: the world record for deadlift is 472kg, which is about a 21 STR, and that's probably a 16 STR pushing for +5 STR. Sorry, but Batman is not the world deadlift record-holder in any universe.)

Speed 9 would make Batman Super human. All the other stats are ok for a normal in 4e.  In 4e NCM is an optional disadvantage for Superheroic and a common limitation for Heroic. 3e doesn’t mention it at all. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh Dex 23 and OCV 8 was part of a suggested range of Reasonable characters. I’ll note that even with NCM, a character doesn’t take MORE damage than a super. He takes the same amount unless he takes a disadvantage. 

[Hugh Neilson]

53 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hugh Dex 23 and OCV 8 was part of a suggested range of Reasonable characters. I’ll note that even with NCM, a character doesn’t take MORE damage than a super. He takes the same amount unless he takes a disadvantage. 

 

Just reading the sample characters in 1e set the baseline for a Super at 23 DEX, 5 SPD.  A slow Super might have had a 20, or even 18 DEX and a 4 SPD.  Faster ones had 26/5 or 29/6.  We started seeing 35/7 as Enemies books started appearing.

 

The problem is that the standard for a Super was set long before anyone gave any thought to "normal humans" having max stats, much less where they would be.  We only knew that 10s were average (8's as an average came later) and could see how fast STR lifts indicated massive STR if we dug in.

 

If 1e had set a standard Super with, say, a 14 DEX and 3 SPD, every character could have lost about 9 DEX and 2 SPD.  They would have played off against each other exactly the same way, and Supers would have had comparatively normal DEX and SPD compared to thugs and agents.  We had power creep for DEX and SPD before 1e even got published...CON as well.

 

As for damage, his STUN and REC are capped as are natural defenses.  Now, toss a limitation on the stats and he can go as high as he likes without doubling. 

 

hmmm...Don Blake/Thor has OIHID on his Thor stats - he could probably have had NCM.  Think about that for a minute...classic Marvel Thor could have taken 20 points for NCM.

[Greywind]

6 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I haven't looked at the system in forever. Does Initiative determine the number of actions/attacks a character can take in a round?

 

I believe it does, but as I stated, I don't currently have access to my DC Heroes stuff.

[Cassandra]

16 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

We've gone seven decades beyond Bob Kane, though. You have to consider what Batman is show to do today, which is what people expect.

 

 

There's no way he could have done the above without pushing the limit of what's humanly possible in almost every category.

 

Maybe he has a high Tactics roll.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh I think though it’s the STR lift chart which threw a monkey wrench into things. Consider before the STR chart, normal 10 meant what? Nothing definitively. I myself as a couch potatoe would easily fit in as a 10. Once the chart started and people started to question what average was then we shifted to Average really should be 8. Also once people did the math and look up world records being were saying that no way a normal can deadlift at 25 STR. Notice how in 5th, Max weight to be lifted became defined as Max barely off the ground and perhaps a step or two. (I’m also thinking that this was also in 4e too). I wondered years ago, what if the STR chart shifted to the right? 10 STR max was the old 5 STR max? Last point, as NCM shows us (and many other rule discussions) players seem to mispply rules even when spelled out.