Why move from 5er to 6e? (List of improvements?)

[ghost-angel]

At the risk of derailment;

He got a point break for that, probably in the form of OIF. That's just a Limitation coming into play.

 

And if you have a Disad/Complication of "Secret ID" paying points to offset it seems... like it isn't that much of a Complication. I see the change into costume more on the Role Playing side of things (finding the coat closet, getting out of the crowd, whatever...) and the rest is SFX. Or a 1 Point Perk (always have my costume ready), at the very best.

 

That stupid 'Power' is a major reason why I started to design around costumes if I could possibly justify it in any way.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its easy to see how having a secret ID and yet instant change are an issue: Superman ran into this a lot.  I assume the Flash never had a problem because super speed, of course.  All Instant Change does is reduce the time it takes to change, not the risk of being caught in costume.

[Chris Goodwin]

I've long thought we need a power equivalent to Perk: Fringe Benefit, or something like M&M's Feature. For a few points you can get some minor effect that isn't covered by any other Power. I've seen some fantasy games where a magic sword is built with Perk: Magic Sword; this would be the ability to use instead.  Instant Change would fit for this as well.  

[bigdamnhero]

[instant Change] That stupid 'Power' is a major reason why I started to design around costumes if I could possibly justify it in any way.

Which I find kinda funny, g-a, since your PC in our current game has Cosmetic Transform: Worn or Damaged Suit into a Clean, New, Suit.

 

I like Instant Change, and think it's worth a point or two to not have to hunt for a phone booth to change in. But that's what Talents are for.

 

I've long thought we need a power equivalent to Perk: Fringe Benefit, or something like M&M's Feature. For a few points you can get some minor effect that isn't covered by any other Power. I've seen some fantasy games where a magic sword is built with Perk: Magic Sword; this would be the ability to use instead.  Instant Change would fit for this as well.  

I love it when players come up with things like this, and will almost always let them take something minor but clever for a point or two, Ghost-angel's PC in a previous campaign was a Clint Eastwood Man With No Name type, who had Perk: Always Has A Cigar. Best 1 point ever spent.

[ghost-angel]

Which I find kinda funny, g-a, since your PC in our current game has Cosmetic Transform: Worn or Damaged Suit into a Clean, New, Suit.

 

I like Instant Change, and think it's worth a point or two to not have to hunt for a phone booth to change in. But that's what Talents are for.

 

I love it when players come up with things like this, and will almost always let them take something minor but clever for a point or two, Ghost-angel's PC in a previous campaign was a Clint Eastwood Man With No Name type, who had Perk: Always Has A Cigar. Best 1 point ever spent.

 

Finding that power kind of funny was the point... it was a very subtle jab at the Instant Change bit, especially since it actually became a thing/point in the last Supers campaign you ran.

[Surrealone]

I like Instant Change, and think it's worth a point or two to not have to hunt for a phone booth to change in. But that's what Talents are for.

 

Especially in modern or futuristic campaigns -- where phone booths are hard (if not impossible) to come by.  Even the Christopher Reeves Superman movies made a bit/gag out of this issue.

 

​

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I love it when players come up with things like this, and will almost always let them take something minor but clever for a point or two, Ghost-angel's PC in a previous campaign was a Clint Eastwood Man With No Name type, who had Perk: Always Has A Cigar. Best 1 point ever spent.

Best One Point Ever Spent: My Bounty Hunter In Dark Champions, Perk: Positive Rep (Badass).

 

As Words Die, I Love My Character Concepts.

[Joe Walsh]

The palindromedary recalls that at the last GenCon I went to there was someone still using FIRST edition - he thought it was perfect already and didn't even care to look at anything that came later.

 

Hmm. Someone should start a thread about the advantages and disadvantages of moving from first edition to second.

[Hyper-Man]

Especially in modern or futuristic campaigns -- where phone booths are hard (if not impossible) to come by.  Even the Christopher Reeves Superman movies made a bit/gag out of this issue.

 

​

 

No need for Instant Change when a character has Super Speed.

 

6) Faster than a speeding bullet! v3: +4 Overall Skill Levels (GM permission is required to be included in a Framework) (48 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) Real Cost: 27

Notes: Changing (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) to (Costs Endurance;-1/2) allows for +5 Overall Skill Levels @6 END per Phase and a Real Cost of 30. The special effect of these Levels is Super Speed and they can be used towards ANYTHING that requires a roll. Examples: All Combat CSL's, Dive For Cover (a DEX roll), Enhanced Perception and to complete tasks faster. From 6e1 page 59, If a character has to perform a task in less time than it normally takes, he suffers a -3 penalty for each level up the Time Chart. Example: a task that would normally take 5 minutes to complete could be done in 1 Turn @ -6 to the roll.

 

 

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Hmm. Someone should start a thread about the advantages and disadvantages of moving from first edition to second.

 

LOL!

 

2nd edition corrected a loophole in Multipowers that didn't specify that the Pool had to be big enough to cover the Active Points in a Slot.  Another player in the first Champions game I participated in took advantage of this by building a 5d6 Drain vs. Intelligence with Range and Reduced Fade Rate (an "I WIN" power if there ever was one!). It was a slot in a 60 Point Multipower.  The Real Cost of the Ultra Slot was around 23 points if I remember correctly.  The GM grandfathered it in once I pointed out the mistake (since I was a late joiner to the group).

 

 

HM

[ghost-angel]

I was thinking about some of the many adjustments and additions made, and I realize that Alternate Combat Value is one of the coolest additions to 6E; it's like AVAD only it changes what CV you use. I was able to realize a whole character concept very easily with it.

[Chris Goodwin]

LOL!

 

2nd edition corrected a loophole in Multipowers that didn't specify that the Pool had to be big enough to cover the Active Points in a Slot.  Another player in the first Champions game I participated in took advantage of this by building a 5d6 Drain vs. Intelligence with Range and Reduced Fade Rate (an "I WIN" power if there ever was one!). It was a slot in a 60 Point Multipower.  The Real Cost of the Ultra Slot was around 23 points if I remember correctly.  The GM grandfathered it in once I pointed out the mistake (since I was a late joiner to the group).

 

 

HM

2nd edition also added the rule whereby you could only sell back one Figured Characteristic.  

 

I was thinking about some of the many adjustments and additions made, and I realize that Alternate Combat Value is one of the coolest additions to 6E; it's like AVAD only it changes what CV you use. I was able to realize a whole character concept very easily with it.

That would work really really well as a backport to 5er, where you could in theory have Strength CV, Constitution CV, Presence CV, and so on.  In fact, during SETAC I was holding out for the CVs to not be decoupled, and hoping for exactly this usage.  

 

Alas.

[bigdamnhero]

No need for Instant Change when a character has Super Speed.

Of course even with instant change, if you suddenly change costume in plain view of everyone you can say good bye to your Secret ID. I once saw a player build Instant Change with Invisible Effect to simulate the fact that no one notices that Hero ID is now standing where Secret ID was a minute ago. Like the old Shazam trope where the lightning blinded everyone for an instant so they didn't notice the swap.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah Instant Change doesn't make people forget who you were before the costume appeared.  I built an armored hero with instant change (it was stored in a pocket dimension and popped on to him) but he had to hide to change to protect his very fragile secret ID.

 

ACV was nice, but mostly for me it just clarified and made official the system instead of a simple +1 for vs ECV.  I'm not super fond of Barrier and I suspect not many people are actually using it but that could be just my perception.  I do like the changes to Usable by Others.  Its a gigantic section of the book but at least now its pretty clear how it works and is easier to use.  I still think there should be an option to allow Aid to grant powers characters don't have because of its elegant mechanics.

 

One of the best small changes is making that first step of adjustment powers from one turn to one minute a +1.  It was so cheap to make an adjustment power effectively permanent in combat but steps beyond that weren't nearly as impactful, and that was a good way to fix the gap.  Another subtle change was folding ID disads into the Social Complication, so that you could tailor how meaningful your secret ID was.  Maybe its not so easy to discover your secret, or it doesn't hurt you so bad.  Maybe your Public ID is a gigantic misery.  Instead of set costs, you can build them to be more specific to the circumstances.

[Tasha]

Hmm. Someone should start a thread about the advantages and disadvantages of moving from first edition to second.

 

going from 1st/2nd edition to 3rd edition is where we get some really exciting changes.

[Hugh Neilson]

2nd edition also added the rule whereby you could only sell back one Figured Characteristic.

2nd introduced spreading an energy blast, and capped the STR addition to an HKA to implement the doubling rule that was more broadly applied over several more editions. I believe it also opened up Drain and Transfer to work on powers, as it worked only on characteristics in 1e.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the release of Champions II and especially III was where things really opened up: transform, Destroy (very long term drain), Mental Paralysis, lots of new cool ideas.  Some like Piercing got dropped, which is too bad because I liked it.

[Lucius]

Yeah the release of Champions II and especially III was where things really opened up: transform, Destroy (very long term drain), Mental Paralysis, lots of new cool ideas.  Some like Piercing got dropped, which is too bad because I liked it.

Piercing: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand OR Ranged 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 1 STUN), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), -1 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Power Only to penetrate defenses (-1/4), Conditional Power Bought for use with a specific attack, only usable with that attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Piercing III: (Total: 22 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand OR Ranged 1d6 (standard effect: 3 BODY, 3 STUN), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), -1 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Power Only to penetrate defenses (-1/4), Conditional Power Bought for use with a specific attack, only usable with that attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 9)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary responds

 

Unpiercable: (Total: 3 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (1 PD/1 ED) (3 Active Points); Limited Power Only to resist Piercing (-1) (Real Cost: 1)

[Hyper-Man]

Piercing: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand OR Ranged 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 1 STUN), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), -1 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Power Only to penetrate defenses (-1/4), Conditional Power Bought for use with a specific attack, only usable with that attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Piercing III: (Total: 22 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand OR Ranged 1d6 (standard effect: 3 BODY, 3 STUN), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), -1 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Power Only to penetrate defenses (-1/4), Conditional Power Bought for use with a specific attack, only usable with that attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 9)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary responds

 

Unpiercable: (Total: 3 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (1 PD/1 ED) (3 Active Points); Limited Power Only to resist Piercing (-1) (Real Cost: 1)

 

I don't think "No STR Bonus" is needed considering this only works in combination with another attack.

 

The more I think about it, the more I realize a NEW Power is needed for this effect and the template on how it works has already been created.

 

Call it Defense Piercing.

Price it just like Damage Negation (5 points per Damage Class).  It does nothing by itself. It's 0 End and Ranged by Default (priced just like an Adder).

The exact type of damage rolled could optionally depend on the type of attack it's combined with.

Call its defense Reduced Piercing.  Price it as a 2 point per DC Adder just like Reduced Negation.

Damage Negation would automatically be a 'secondary' defense.

 

HM

[Joe Walsh]

going from 1st/2nd edition to 3rd edition is where we get some really exciting changes.

 

Sounds like a job for Super Flowcharter and his sidekick, Annotation Boy.

 

(I keep wanting to go back through all that old stuff and track the changes. Because I'm that kind of nerd, ya know. Maybe after I retire, I can write a scholarly work on the evolution of Hero System.)

[bigdamnhero]

I'm not super fond of Barrier and I suspect not many people are actually using it but that could be just my perception.

FWIW, Barrier gets used a lot in my games. [shrug] Strokes comma different.

[ghost-angel]

Barrier is awesome...

 

Barrier + AoE Damage Shield = Wall Of Fire/Thorns/Spikes - that's great for Fantasy spells, for example.

[rravenwood]

2nd edition also added the rule whereby you could only sell back one Figured Characteristic. 

 

Actually that rule is already in 1st edition (p.8, first column, right before the "Explanation of Characteristics" header).

[rravenwood]

going from 1st/2nd edition to 3rd edition is where we get some really exciting changes.

 

Sounds like a job for Super Flowcharter and his sidekick, Annotation Boy.

 

(I keep wanting to go back through all that old stuff and track the changes. Because I'm that kind of nerd, ya know. Maybe after I retire, I can write a scholarly work on the evolution of Hero System.)

 

I can relate because I've actually already gone through and made notes on the changes between 1st/2nd/3rd (at least what was noticeable to me - I probably missed some things here and there), but they're not in a presentable form as of yet - life keeps interrupting, as it is wont to do...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd build piercing with AVAD (defense being unpiercable) so it just goes through rather than stacks damage.  There was a house rule variant I saw once that treated the dice as normal and the body on the roll got through.  That seemed pretty good too.

 

Barrier + AoE Damage Shield = Wall Of Fire/Thorns/Spikes - that's great for Fantasy spells, for example.

 

 

And if someone sneezes on the 1 foot square thing it collapses.  Unless your active point caps are pretty huge for magic, I guess.