Why move from 5er to 6e? (List of improvements?)

[Tech]

I'm what's often referred to as a "FrankenHero" player. My group's Hero game engine is mostly 5E, but we've kept a few things from 4E that we liked, and have imported some things from 6E that we liked. Since you already have the 6E rules you might consider just adding such elements from that to your 5E game as appeal to you, and apprise your players of those changes so they don't need to purchase the full 6E rules themselves.

 

Same here.

[Ninja-Bear]

Piercing: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand OR Ranged 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 1 STUN), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), -1 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Power Only to penetrate defenses (-1/4), Conditional Power Bought for use with a specific attack, only usable with that attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Piercing III: (Total: 22 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand OR Ranged 1d6 (standard effect: 3 BODY, 3 STUN), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), -1 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Power Only to penetrate defenses (-1/4), Conditional Power Bought for use with a specific attack, only usable with that attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 9)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary responds

 

Unpiercable: (Total: 3 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (1 PD/1 ED) (3 Active Points); Limited Power Only to resist Piercing (-1) (Real Cost: 1)

And its builds like this that give Hero a reputation of being overly complex.

[Lucius]

And its builds like this that give Hero a reputation of being overly complex.

With Hero I have about 75 Powers, about that many Skills, about 20 or 25 Talents, all in one book, out of which I can build anything I need.

 

But some people's idea of "simpler" is a few thousand spells, feats, skills, features, whatever, spread through a dozen books, that still won't let you build everything you can build in Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm sure I have built thousands of taglines using palindromedaries

[Ninja-Bear]

With Hero I have about 75 Powers, about that many Skills, about 20 or 25 Talents, all in one book, out of which I can build anything I need.

 

But some people's idea of "simpler" is a few thousand spells, feats, skills, features, whatever, spread through a dozen books, that still won't let you build everything you can build in Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm sure I have built thousands of taglines using palindromedaries

Sorry should have clairified that with your piercing example I was more referring to how piercing went from a +1/2 advatange and a paragraph explaining how it worked to a paragraph of write up to make it work simular to instant change.

 

Still though Champions went from roughly a 4 x 6 size card to aleast 2 pages long for a character. Yes Hero system you can build want you want but what is the price? Besides character points that is.

[Ninja-Bear]

Bigdamnhero let me ask you because I am curious. You said with sixth you learn new builds were possible, which is cool by the way, but are they builds with which you actually use in play?

 

Disclaimer: I have nothing against 6th.

[bigdamnhero]

Bigdamnhero let me ask you because I am curious. You said with sixth you learn new builds were possible, which is cool by the way, but are they builds with which you actually use in play?

Fair question, and the answer is absolutely. A few examples I can think of just from our current game:

• Gadget Pool with a lot of minor gadgets (VPP with a large RP Pool and a low AP Cap).
• A magic VPP designed to cast One Big Spell at a time (VPP with a small RP Pool and a high AP Cap).
• A thug who uses his ugliness as an asset to intimidate people (Striking Appearance, adds to Persuasion Rolls).
• A brick with a low DEX and low DCV to reflect general clumsiness, but a decent OCV to reflect the “Damn he’s faster than he looks!” factor i combat.
• Conversely, a DNPC who’s athletic but a combat novice has a high DEX and a decent DCV, but a lousy OCV.
• (Honestly, just the notion that DEX, OCV & DCV don’t all have to be the same opens up a whole new world of character builds right there, especially for "colorful" NPCs.)
• A weak speedster who’s easily Stunned (ave CON), but hard to knock out because she recovers near-instantly (high STUN).
• Alternate Combat Value gets used a lot if you want, say, a mental blast that uses OCV or vice-versa.
• Attack Vs. Alternate Defense is my go-to Advantage now for building anything weird: Soul Swords that work against Power Defense,  vibration attacks that bypass nonresistant ED, etc.
• As mentioned above, Barrier + Advantages (or Barrier linked to other powers) gets a lot of play.

As I said before, you could do most of these builds in 5ed if you throw around enough Limitations. But the fact that they're easier to build now (and not cost-prohibitive) means I see a lot more of them, on both sides of the GM screen.

[Christopher R Taylor]

See, all of those could have been done before, but 6th made their construction a lot more obvious.

[Lucius]

See, all of those could have been done before, but 6th made their construction a lot more obvious.

Just to play devil's advocate, perhaps at the cost of making other constructions less obvious.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary often argues both sides

[Christopher R Taylor]

Possibly, yeah.  Its a trade off, but mostly a win on the side of clarity with a few exceptions.  I would advise people to buy the pdf at least of 6th.  I can't afford the gigantic tomes although I would not mind having them.  Champions Complete is smaller and less costly but less exhaustive as well.

[bigdamnhero]

Just to play devil's advocate, perhaps at the cost of making other constructions less obvious.

Such as? I can't think of any, but maybe that's precisely because they're less obvious?

[Lucius]

Such as? I can't think of any, but maybe that's precisely because they're less obvious?

 

 

I'm sure some have already been mentioned in thread.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

Fighting with a palindromedary today

[Ninja-Bear]

Fair question, and the answer is absolutely. A few examples I can think of just from our current game:

• Gadget Pool with a lot of minor gadgets (VPP with a large RP Pool and a low AP Cap).
• A magic VPP designed to cast One Big Spell at a time (VPP with a small RP Pool and a high AP Cap).
• A thug who uses his ugliness as an asset to intimidate people (Striking Appearance, adds to Persuasion Rolls).
• A brick with a low DEX and low DCV to reflect general clumsiness, but a decent OCV to reflect the “Damn he’s faster than he looks!” factor i combat.
• Conversely, a DNPC who’s athletic but a combat novice has a high DEX and a decent DCV, but a lousy OCV.
• (Honestly, just the notion that DEX, OCV & DCV don’t all have to be the same opens up a whole new world of character builds right there, especially for "colorful" NPCs.)
• A weak speedster who’s easily Stunned (ave CON), but hard to knock out because she recovers near-instantly (high STUN).
• Alternate Combat Value gets used a lot if you want, say, a mental blast that uses OCV or vice-versa.
• Attack Vs. Alternate Defense is my go-to Advantage now for building anything weird: Soul Swords that work against Power Defense, vibration attacks that bypass nonresistant ED, etc.
• As mentioned above, Barrier + Advantages (or Barrier linked to other powers) gets a lot of play.

As I said before, you could do most of these builds in 5ed if you throw around enough Limitations. But the fact that they're easier to build now (and not cost-prohibitive) means I see a lot more of them, on both sides of the GM screen.

Thanks.

[Grailknight]

Such as? I can't think of any, but maybe that's precisely because they're less obvious?

 

Transfer is much more complicated. It is now a compound Drain and Aid. It does however gain utility in detaching the fade rates of each.

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwiw I thought the expansion. Of change effect was worth the upgrade from 4th to 5th rev. Also with revised I actually went ahead of my group. Ultimately I think wether a change is justified is upon individual preference.

[Hugh Neilson]

I was a proponent of dropping Transfer. Had we started with Aid and Drain in the rules, we probably would not have had Transfer as a separate power. As the editions went by, and we started getting rules requiring reduced fade rate be bought twice, once on each aspect of the power, the disconnect of a separate Transfer power rather than linking a Drain and an Aid became more pronounced.

 

Show me how, in 5e, one builds the Hand Held Hypno-Ray, which uses the wielder`s mental OCV to target the opponent`s physical DCV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Sorry should have clairified that with your piercing example I was more referring to how piercing went from a +1/2 advatange and a paragraph explaining how it worked to a paragraph of write up to make it work simular to instant change.

Piercing wasn`t an advantage. It was an adder that reduced 1 point of defense of the target per iteration of the adder purchased.

[Hugh Neilson]

With Hero I have about 75 Powers, about that many Skills, about 20 or 25 Talents, all in one book, out of which I can build anything I need.

 

But some people's idea of "simpler" is a few thousand spells, feats, skills, features, whatever, spread through a dozen books, that still won't let you build everything you can build in Hero.

Yup - first, you need to search to see if the effect you want has been written up. If it has, you need to determine whether it is a feat (if it is, can you meet the prerequisites), a spell (so you only get it for a while, and you need spellcaster levels in the right class), a racial feature (defined choice at L1) or a class feature (Multiclass/prestige class, here we come).

 

Having found something close to the desired effect which is possible in a build feasible for the desired character (assuming you do find this), make sure all the component parts are from source materials your group allows.

 

I find character builds in these games are "`reason effect from rules" rather than "reason from effect". Having discovered I need an obscure race with dips into three unusual classes or prestige classes, and four feats from four different, less common, books, I can now build my character. Once we`re two thirds through the campaign, assuming all the disparate materials are used, my highly rationalized character (to justify cobbling these elements together) can finally have the single ability I designed him to have.

 

I find these rule systems see a lot more "I saw this `cool mechanic in the rules and designed a character around it" rather than "I used the rules to build the character I envisioned".

[Lucius]

Yeah, but we're getting sidetracked. The thread wasn't to sell Hero System, but to sell the 6th edition specifically to someone already playing the 5th.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Would you like a palindromedary with that?

[Ninja-Bear]

Yup - first, you need to search to see if the effect you want has been written up. If it has, you need to determine whether it is a feat (if it is, can you meet the prerequisites), a spell (so you only get it for a while, and you need spellcaster levels in the right class), a racial feature (defined choice at L1) or a class feature (Multiclass/prestige class, here we come).

 

Having found something close to the desired effect which is possible in a build feasible for the desired character (assuming you do find this), make sure all the component parts are from source materials your group allows.

 

I find character builds in these games are "`reason effect from rules" rather than "reason from effect". Having discovered I need an obscure race with dips into three unusual classes or prestige classes, and four feats from four different, less common, books, I can now build my character. Once we`re two thirds through the campaign, assuming all the disparate materials are used, my highly rationalized character (to justify cobbling these elements together) can finally have the single ability I designed him to have.

 

I find these rule systems see a lot more "I saw this `cool mechanic in the rules and designed a character around it" rather than "I used the rules to build the character I envisioned".

To be fair though it really is ymmv which is the best system. In Hero you have to have a concept first to build a power construct. Lord knows i've been blank about that. So the I pull a power out of the book approach can be easier. I do that and just convert it to Hero and maybe a tweak here or there. And once you decide on a construct as we all know the actual build can vary abit from the minor this advatage or that upto the all inclusive "well for the work involved, just handwave/GM fiat".

[Christopher R Taylor]

Show me how, in 5e, one builds the Hand Held Hypno-Ray, which uses the wielder`s mental OCV to target the opponent`s physical DCV. 

Uase Attack vs ECV, with a modifier on the advantage to be against physical DCV.  Complicated, but possible.

[Ninja-Bear]

Yeah, but we're getting sidetracked. The thread wasn't to sell Hero System, but to sell the 6th edition specifically to someone already playing the 5th.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Would you like a palindromedary with that?

The way I see it, we really arent side tracked. Whether changing editions or changing systems each person must decide if the positives of the thing in question outweighs the negative. And the weight of each is really more subjective than objective.

[Hugh Neilson]

Uase Attack vs ECV, with a modifier on the advantage to be against physical DCV.  Complicated, but possible.

OK, so "make up a new rule to cover it" in 5e, "there is a rule" in 6e.

 

By that logic, I can also build whatever I want in D&D or with no rules system at all.

[Lucius]

OK, so "make up a new rule to cover it" in 5e, "there is a rule" in 6e.

 

By that logic, I can also build whatever I want in D&D or with no rules system at all.

 

Well, the question was "show me how" and that showed 'em.

 

And in moving to 6th edition, we moved up to two hefty volumes - a briefcase full of rules all by itself.

 

I LIKE the precision and crunch of Hero System, but even I have to wonder sometimes if it's been taken to an extreme.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary on the other hand says it's crunchy and delicious

[Hugh Neilson]

That hefty two volumes has since been summarized down to one volume including genre advice and examples in the Complete books.  6e provided a ton of examples and corner cases, not just rules and mechanics.

 

I'm also unclear why people look at 6e and say "WOW that must be complicated - the rules need TWO BOOKS".  The Player's Handbook and DM's Guide (two books) are a staple of RPG design. Both are needed for D&D, and many more besides to add the various options gamers seem to crave.

[Joe Walsh]

I see where you're coming from regarding two-book RPG design, but is that really all that common outside of D&D? GURPS and Hero both use it in their latest incarnations, but have more than a handful of others in the post-saddle-stitched era?

 

Aside from that, it seems like a lot of people want simple RPGs these days. Here, I'm talking about people who aren't solely in the market for D&D (a niche within a niche). And a lot of them seem to want free (or at best, cheap) more than anything else. And with the proliferation of RPGs, they can get it -- legally. You can get an enormous number of PDFs for nothing or close to it, from the latest stuff to grognard favorites like B/X D&D. And nearly all of them are low on page count compared to Hero.

 

I say that as someone who loves Hero and has shelves of the stuff, from 1e all the way up to CC & FHC. It's just that as I look around at the market and listen to what people say, it seems pretty clear to me that what the segment of the market Hero might reach wants is something about as complex as a decent Euro board game and that costs no more than $10.

 

Hero can't really compete in that space. Not without providing a product they've never provided before, anyway. And maybe not without remaking Hero System entirely.