Create drinkable water

[Lucius]

I am not aware of this rule.

The rule in question exists (in some editions at least) but is often ignored in favor of choosing the simpler or more obvious build, or even the cheapest - the exact opposite of the rule.

 

And it was pointed out years ago that, for example, Energy Blast with Based on Ego Combat Value and a bunch of other Advantages was more expensive than Ego Blast, but absolutely everyone was in favor of the cheaper simpler solution.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Well okay, the palindromedary did argue for the complex expensive build but was just being contrary.

[Chris Goodwin]

You can Summon a Base, though, right?  It's kind of odd, but you can do it.  

 

So you can build a base whose sole grounds consist of a 2 meter hole filled with water.  And then Summon that base.  

[Lucius]

Sure, it can do it at its base Speed of Zero.  When does its phase come up?

You can get a +1 for taking a half phase or +2 for a whole phase, but perception is a free action.

 

So is talking.

 

Do you have "inanimate objects" class of minds on your telepathy?

 

And if Aquaman can talk to some damn fish, and Swamp Thing can talk to grass, I don't see why someone else can't talk to the water.

Might as well be talking to the wall....: (Total: 24 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Universal Translator +4 to roll (24 Active Points); Conditional Power Inanimate Objects only (-1), Usable By Other (-3/4), Grantor can take back power at any time, Recipient must remain close to Grantor, Grantor can only grant the power to others, Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Physical Manifestation (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 7)

Causes something that ordinarily does not have ears or a mouth to grow them (these newly gained organs can be targeted and destroyed.) The target object is enabled to understand and respond to anyone speaking to it. Use this Power on a garden and not only will the corn have ears, the beans talk. Following an enlightening discussion with a lamp and a fruitful conversation with a tree, I am starting to think your "Summon Water" idea may not be all wet after all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Bonewits had something to do with it too.

[Lucius]

You can Summon a Base, though, right?  It's kind of odd, but you can do it.  

 

So you can build a base whose sole grounds consist of a 2 meter hole filled with water.  And then Summon that base.  

The Old Swimming Hole

Val

Char

Base

Points

Total

Roll

Notes

4

BODY

2

2

4

 

 

2

SIZE

0

4

2

 

Length 12.7m, Width 6.35m, Height 6.35m, Volume 512m^3 OCV +5

 

 

Cost

Powers

END

 

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 0

 

Total Cost: 0

 

 

What I can't summon apparently is any coherent formatting.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I can summon a palindromedary

[Christopher R Taylor]

Your sarcasm is misplaced.  What does Summoning water do?  It brings forth inanimate water that just sits there on the ground.  This is not an abusive power.  Why are you afraid of a simple game mechanic?

First off, no fear.

Second, the sarcasm was an attempt to get you to understand why this is a really poor concept.  Why water and not gold?  All it does it sit there too. 

Third, as has been noted, you're violating one of the base rules of hero (use the more expensive power if there's an obvious one) 

Fourth, the entire build requires you to invent a new use for a power that's ridiculously easy to abuse (as noted)

Fifth, as I've noted, summon is a power that brings a character into being at your location, with a character sheet.  Not inanimate objects without any build.  Things that cost points and have stats, not water.

edited: one more point: Summon has absolute controls over how much and how many you get.  Summoning a non-character quantity means no controls: I summon the entire planet full of water!

 

Its an attempt to be creative, and find a new way to do something, but its like using energy blast to fly by doing knockback to the earth.  Its all wrong.

[massey]

First off, no fear.

Second, the sarcasm was an attempt to get you to understand why this is a really poor concept.  Why water and not gold?  All it does it sit there too. 

 

 

15 points of Wealth gives you all the gold you could ever use, so I don't really understand the problem here.  Summoning gold out of thin air is perfectly fine.  If you want to spend it like money, if you want to easily sell and trade it, then buying Wealth, defined as "creating gold out of thin air" is probably most appropriate.  If you want to use gold for some other purpose, then I'd have no problem with using Summon at all.

 

I can Summon a solid gold golem to crush my enemies, and no one would bat an eye.  I can Summon a water elemental to drown my enemies, and no one cares.

 

You are clearly worried about a player trying to get something for nothing.

 

 

Third, as has been noted, you're violating one of the base rules of hero (use the more expensive power if there's an obvious one) 

 

 

There's not an obvious one.  And has been noted, the rule should really be "use the simplest one".  I gave several examples where the most expensive power is not the right one.  Someone else used the example of Ego Attack and an Advantaged Energy Blast.

 

Transform is an attack.  It's based on the cost of RKA.  That is not the appropriate cost structure for Swimming-Pool-Filler-Man.  We're talking about a non-combat ability here.

 

 

Fourth, the entire build requires you to invent a new use for a power that's ridiculously easy to abuse (as noted)

Fifth, as I've noted, summon is a power that brings a character into being at your location, with a character sheet.  Not inanimate objects without any build.  Things that cost points and have stats, not water.

 

Its an attempt to be creative, and find a new way to do something, but its like using energy blast to fly by doing knockback to the earth.  Its all wrong.

 

Summon brings forth creatures or objects.  It says it right there in the power description.  We've already got materials published by Hero Games where Summon is used to create an attack.  Take a look at the Nega-Beam, UNTIL Superpowers Database (Revised), page 262.  I'm not inventing a new use for it.

 

You can already Summon vehicles.  The rules say you can.  So I can Summon a tanker full of water, no sweat.  I can summon a truck full of bricks.  Why not just summon the water or the bricks?

 

And you've said it's abusive over and over again, but never once made any sort of argument.  How in the hell is Summoning a swimming pool full of water abusive?  You start talking about Summoning gold, and nuclear bombs, and other things.  But how is Summoning a swimming pool full of water abusive?  It's not simulating another power.  It's not a cheap way to get an attack.  It's just creating water, regular old water.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well you have fun with that in your game, and you'll come to understand what the problem is.

[bigbywolfe]

While I'm personally not in favor of using Summon for this kind of thing, there is precedent for using Summon to bring things other than Characters into existence.

 

Christopher, how did you "come to understand what the problem is" with this suggestion? Was it a problem in a game you ran or is this just another case of anyone interpreting the rules different than you being "wrong"? Can you give an actual reason this is a problem that hasn't already been answered?

[ghost-angel]

First, the "you must use the most expensive power of two equally valid builds" is not 'base rule' - it is one of the guiding Meta-Rules; Another of which is not using one Power to simulate another Power.

 

Which brings us to a few points brought out in this discussion;

 

Using Summon to bring 'things' into your presence; It's underlying intent is to Summon forth a target Character (be it base animal or another PC). The rules have allowed for the idea that Vehicles and Bases are essentially Characters for this purpose.

 

The Nega-Beam is an interesting study in an idea. It creates a self-propelled weapon, weirdly enough, a bullet you can knock out (i.e. destroy) if you hurt it enough... you can punch a Nega-Beam into submission. Which is weird, but possibly genre appropriate. It's not totally simulating another power (you're not summoning a straight nuclear explosion, though it's certainly close).

 

But that leads us back to the Watering Hole idea, summoning forth a base that is essentially a lot of water in a hole you make. Or a tanker truck full of water.

 

Are we 1) simulating another power and 2) is there an equally valid method that is more expensive.

 

1) Not really, it could be argued you're simulating Life Support: Does Not Need To Drink to represent always having water on hand to satisfy that need (a common use of the LS Power). Consequently, Summon All The Gold does pretty directly attempt to simulate another Power, well, Perk: Wealth. Making that a much more clear cut case of violating the Meta-Rule here (on the other side of that coin, Summon Gold is a good Special Effect of Wealth, so there's that).

 

2) This one is harder to answer. What are equally valid methods? Any method you can think of given the wide open nature of the rules? Probably not, their probably going to be a little more campaign specific. That means this Meta-Rule is more flexible, and ultimately arbitrated by the GM.

 

Given those 2 ideas - and the Nega-Beam example - even with Summon: The Old Watering Hole, you still need to define what Water is doing, and that the Base itself (as with the Nega-Beam) still needs to buy the "water" Power.

 

Until you define the "What's this doing in the game?" you're not going to get any satisfactory answer out of the question.

 

If you can create Weather with Change Environment (for example) you can make it rain, rain is water, so a sufficiently small area with a large enough rain fall could quickly fill a glass with rain water. That's making water.

 

Transform is an obvious choice, it literally changes X into Y, in this case Empty Glass into Glass With Water. Or Dry Swimming Hole to Full Swimming Hole. It also bypasses the "What is water doing?" question nicely by just not caring. But then you need to define a Body Stat for the amount of Water being created to know how much Effect you need to roll to succeed. A glass is probably 1, The Old Swimming Hole probably a bit higher...

 

You can Summon the Swimming Hole directly, or a truck with a tank of water on it, given a properly defined Base or Vehicle, but these become slightly recursive when you still run back to answering "what is water doing?"

 

There's Life Support: Doesn't Need To Eat/Drink (Drinking Only); this appears to be another obvious choice, as the Power directly addresses what Water is typically for: drinking and keeping you alive.

 

And lastly, there's the fact that it might not be doing anything at all but filling a glass up, and the suggestions of "roll Power Skill" or just "Have the Power Skill, you can do that, it's simple and within the genre" and the Power Skill will of course vary from "Water Manipulation" to "Magic" or whatever. This is also relatively easy to deal with.

 

--

But what else are you doing? Can you drop a hose into The Old Swimming Hole (or grab a bucket) and use all that water to douse a fire? That's definitely simulating Suppress/Dispel Fire.

 

Are all those equally valid builds? Not really, not until you really define the What and Why of the water being brought forth. From parlor trick to never ending supply of clean drinking water to a tool used for other ends. Then the "use the more expensive build" Meta-Rule might come into play, but likely figuring out how you want it to work in the game will likely yield one or two clear answers for you.

 

So - for all those saying "you're doing it wrong" with various builds, no, the only people actually doing it wrong are the ones telling other people they're doing it wrong.

[kukuli]

First, the "you must use the most expensive power of two equally valid builds" is not 'base rule' - it is one of the guiding Meta-Rules; Another of which is not using one Power to simulate another Power.

 

Where is the "most expensive" rule found?  I've been playing Hero from the beginning and I managed to miss it.  What page is it in 5er?  Or 6?

[IndianaJoe3]

Where is the "most expensive" rule found?  I've been playing Hero from the beginning and I managed to miss it.  What page is it in 5er?  Or 6?

 

It's not part of the rules as written. It's a method of interpreting the rules that some people use. 

[Hugh Neilson]

Um... I still don't think it would work. The cost of summon is 1 RP and the cost of a major transform, which does the same thing, costs 16 RP. The rule of HERO is that, with equally similar powers, you must choose the one that costs most.

Here we go again with the most misunderstood and misquoted metarule.

 

If two Powers (or other game elements) are equally valid ways to create a particular ability, you must use the more expensive of the two.

 

The first part tends to get ignored. 

 

Mostly I've gone with the build that is the simplest to create is the best build to use.

That, to me, is the first part of the rule. It's why you buy Mental Blast, and don't reconstruct it using an advantaged Blast. It's the reason we don't use the example builds Lucius tossed out upthread, or Transform Living Person to Dead Person instead of buying a Killing Attack.

 

Creating water seems a pretty minor effect, but we don't know what in-game effect you want it to have. Fill a swimming pool? Water the garden? Sounds a lot like Change Environment. A decent AoE CE could fill a huge area with water, imposing the "underwater" combat effects (including suffocation from APG). You only want a little water, so it sounds like very limited effects (like a small Drain against fire powers).

 

Practically, if it has no real in-game impact, it should cost nothing. A character with a Fire Blast can ignite combustible materials, so a character with a Water Blast can leave behind drinking water. Use 1 point of Blast and create a small amount of water.

[Ragitsu]

Does this power just create water free of significant saline content, or can it conjure up brackish/full-on salt water as well?

[Lucius]

Where is the "most expensive" rule found?  I've been playing Hero from the beginning and I managed to miss it.  What page is it in 5er?  Or 6?

 

It is in both, far far back in the back of the books. I think it was in 4th edition too. Hugh Nielson has the citation for 6th, see above post.

 

It's not part of the rules as written. It's a method of interpreting the rules that some people use.

It is in fact written in black and white in the books. I just checked and in 6th edition it is literally about five pages from the end of the second book, so it's no wonder if some people missed it. It is one of a set of several "meta-rules," basically guidelines for interpreting or changing the Hero rules meant to give some insight into Hero's design principles and how it's "meant" to be played. For example,

 

This is a game, and the purpose

of a game is to have fun. We think you’ll have the

most fun with the game the way we designed it,

but you should play the game the way you want to.

So if I reason that the average character is buoyant in water and would float in a large body of water and decide I want to define filling the swimming pool as "Flight, Area Effect, only to lift up characters and objects less dense than water," then I can do that and we can add that to the list.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary gets the last word with

 

Swimming Pool: (Total: 0 Active Cost, 0 Real Cost) Swimming 0m (4m total), Usable Nearby (+1) (Real Cost: 0)

 

So if you have, say, Swimming 2m and are in the area, you can now swim 2 meters per phase. I'm trying to decide if that's brilliant, or pointless. The palindromedary claims it's both.

[ghost-angel]

At the end of 6th Edition Vol. 2 there is a chapter called "Changing The System" - in it are the 8 Meta-Rules of Hero. They are not lines in the sand, hard fact, Laws Of Hero. They're the guiding principles that allowed the rest of the system, and a game, to construct itself with some internal consistency.

 

In summation:

1. One Damage Class = 5 Points.

2. Every Attack has a Defense.

3. Avoid 'fixed' or 'absolutes' in the game.

4. Point cost should follow balance (more powerful = more expensive).

5. Do not use one Power to emulate another Power.

6. Given two (ore more) equally valid builds, use the more expensive one.

7. Powers are "generic", there are no Special Effects built into the system.

8. You can change anything to suit your game/play style better.

 

Even the language in these builds allows for variance and flutter, "equally valid" - for instance - can vary wildly in interpretation, what constitutes Valid? To Christopher Taylor, "Summon The Old Swimming Hole" is not a valid power to begin with, and it therefore not something he would consider for his games. Someone else may look at that and see elegant genius, and use it. Both are correct interpretations of the Meta-Rules.

 

Edit: I looked up my copy of 4E Hero System; most of these Meta-Rules are listed in the very end under "Designing New Powers" which are similar guidelines for how to create things you don't find in the book; of note though there are only 5, and the last 3 listed here were added with 5th Edition and the wording changing to a more overall guideline principle for how Hero works rather than five points to consider when creating a completely new power.

[Lucius]

I came up with 10 ways to fill a swimming pool, and will post them when I have time

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests someone should try talking Lucius out of reposting the Variable Babe Pool while he's at it.

[L. Marcus]

No way! Tell him to post to his widdwe heart's content!

[massey]

+4 Comeliness

OIF (-1/2)

Not for fat people (-1/2)

 

Being by the pool makes you look hotter.

[Lucius]

Variable Swimming Pool, 60 base + 90 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action (+1), No Skill Roll Required (+1) (195 Active Points); Limited Special Effect Uncommon SFX (-1), Incantations ("This pool is now defined as....."; -1/4); all slots Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Drowning Pool: (Total: 82 Active Cost, 19 Real Cost) Change Environment (Alterable Size, Long-Lasting Permanent, Suffocation), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (82 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Limited Power Only drowns those who can't swim (-1), No Range (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 19)

 

Summoned Pool: (Total: 5 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Summon 1-point "Base" , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Slavishly Devoted (+1), Time Limit (1 Season; +2 3/4) (5 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Transform Dry Pool into Full Pool: (Total: 37 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Minor Transform 1d6, Partial Transform (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once (65-128 damage increments, damage occurs every Minute, +5 1/2) (37 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), No Range (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 11)

 

Fish Pond (just add fish): (Total: 22 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX :Fresh or salt or other water conditions; +1/4), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

Just Fill it with the Hose: (Total: 52 Active Cost, 19 Real Cost) Blast 3d6, STUN Only (+0), Double Knockback (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (10 shots; +1) (52 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 19)

 

Just fill it with the Fire Hose: (Total: 84 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost) Dispel 4d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (84 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 28)

 

Oh, just pay someone to put in a pool and take care of it: (Total: 4 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Money: Well Off (4 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

Floating Pool: (Total: 2 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Flight 1m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Usable Nearby (+1) (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only to cause things less dense than water to float on top (-2), Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

Swimming Pool: (Total: 0 Active Cost, 0 Real Cost) Swimming 0m (4m total), Usable Nearby (+1); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 0)

 

That pool? It came with the house.: (Total: 1 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Access (to swimming pool); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

 

edit: And when Doc Democracy comes over to swim,

 

Water by the Cupic Meter: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Barrier, 1 BODY (up to 1m long, 1m tall, and 1m thick), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), No Range (-1/2), Cannot Englobe (-1/4), Restricted Shape (Takes the shape of its container (or becomes a big puddle); -1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants an indoor heated Variable Power Pool

[Doc Democracy]

Hmm.  I was waiting for this Lucius and now I am disappointed that you have not explored the avenue I first thought of and could not find the time to think about properly.

 

One of the problems with creating water is the absolute multitude of things that people then want to do with it (as you demonstrate above).  If you approach this in the classic HERO fashion (think what you want to accomplish and then build in the game effects) it would be hugely costly.

 

Of those things that create material (as part of their power description) it is Barrier that first came to me.  Of course, I could create a barrier made of water.  it explicitly states that the material may be left lying around.  There is the same problem with that as there might be with claiming you barrier is made of gold, but it does produces material, it has volume constraints and it is a core power, no advantages or limitations.

 

My disconnect has been how you get a barrier made of water, but this is superhero physics, of course it works....whadda ya think??

 

Doc

[Lucius]

Hmm.  I was waiting for this Lucius and now I am disappointed that you have not explored the avenue I first thought of and could not find the time to think about properly.

 

One of the problems with creating water is the absolute multitude of things that people then want to do with it (as you demonstrate above).  If you approach this in the classic HERO fashion (think what you want to accomplish and then build in the game effects) it would be hugely costly.

 

Of those things that create material (as part of their power description) it is Barrier that first came to me.  Of course, I could create a barrier made of water.  it explicitly states that the material may be left lying around.  There is the same problem with that as there might be with claiming you barrier is made of gold, but it does produces material, it has volume constraints and it is a core power, no advantages or limitations.

 

My disconnect has been how you get a barrier made of water, but this is superhero physics, of course it works....whadda ya think??

 

Doc

I think that's why I created a Variable Power Pool - another option can be added at no point cost.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Lucius Alexander used a Variable Power Pool just to make a cheap pun, but it's true that adding further options is pointless

[ghost-angel]

We've entered the Spoon Problem at this point; how do you model a Spoon in Hero? "VPP; Only Things A Spoon Can Do"

 

The problem is if you take too broad an approach to modeling you invariable don't model what you want to accomplish and get bogged down and drown in your own thought process.

 

It's water. Pick a mode of entry based on your initial desired Effect, the rest can either be modeled as you change Effects or simply a Common Sense approach hand wave (yes, you can do that, no you can't do that, and so on).

 

This also butts up against an (minor) inherent limitation of Hero itself; an Effects Based System means you have to have an Effect in mind first, before you can even really build something. An idea as simple as "summon water" becomes a rather large discussion because "water" has no Effect, it's a Special Effect. It doesn't DO anything until you apply it somewhere - and then suddenly different builds make sense based on the situation.

[massey]

^^^

 

Yup.  It's like creating some Cheetos.

 

GM:  "What do the Cheetos do?"

Player:  "Umm... they taste good?"

GM:  "So you're creating food that you can live off of."

Player:  "Uhh, (looks at ingredients on back of Cheetos packet) not really."

GM:  "Sounds like Life Support: Does Not Need to Eat, Usable By Others, to me.  That or a Major Transform.  Probably both, linked together, to be on the safe side."

Player:  "I just thought it would be cool if my guy always had a bag of Cheetos on him somewhere."

 

 

Some people have had bad experiences in game that make them cautious about any odd request.  They get suspicious, and think somebody is trying to pull one over on them.  But sometimes a fun, useless power is just a fun, useless power.  If your power has no Game Effect, and is just flavor, then it should be very cheap.

[DasBroot]

For the record, the GM response was 'if you want to spend a character point to create a custom power that can fill up to a bathtub full of drinking water per use go right ahead'.

 

Occam's razor and all.

 

Discussions on how many points a $20 swiss army knife would actually cost in a superheroic game are one of the most fun things about the system, though.

[Lucius]

For the record, the GM response was 'if you want to spend a character point to create a custom power that can fill up to a bathtub full of drinking water per use go right ahead'.

 

Occam's razor and all.

 

Discussions on how many points a $20 swiss army knife would actually cost in a superheroic game are one of the most fun things about the system, though.

 

I came up with a 1 pt Adder, "Tool" for weapons that have useful applications outside doing damage in combat.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has gone swimming