Create drinkable water

[Nolgroth]

Discussions on how many points a $20 swiss army knife would actually cost in a superheroic game are one of the most fun things about the system, though.

 

Funny, I find those least enjoyable aspect of Hero. I suppose there is an attraction to the toolkit aspect that Hero has, but I just want(ed) to use it to run games. Now I find that the price of entry to run a game using Hero is too high. As much as I like the idea of modelling everything to suit my tastes, I find too many things that are either too expensive for the game effect or just too complex to want to build. I've probably built too many mental walls against the system itself, but Hero has become less of a game and more of a place to virtually hang out.

 

I'm good with that though. It's fun for me to see how other people model those kinds of things.

[massey]

You get too hung up in minutia when you try to quantify everything.  It's like building a chair.  It can hold you off the ground when you sit on it.  You can stand on it to reach higher things.  You can hit somebody with it.  You can duck behind it if someone throws something at you.  You can tear the legs off and use them as clubs, or stab someone with them depending on how sharp the break is.  You can set it on fire and let it burn.  You can use it to brace a door.  You can take out the screws from it and use them to hold up pictures on the wall.  You can wipe your hands on it.  The bottom of a chair makes a convenient booger hider location after a chunky sneeze.  A chair can make an attractive decoration for a room.  It also makes a convenient chew device for a puppy.  In the dark, it can trip an intruder.  It can do many of these things at the same time.  Chairs are actually very expensive in Hero.

 

18 Str Telekinesis, 0 End, levitation only, one height only

1" Stretching, 0 End, only to reach things when you stand on it, requires a Dex roll, side effects

+3 DCV, requires dive for cover (alternatively, 4/4 Force Wall, 1 hex, opaque to sight, partial coverage)

--these have to be bought separately, because one guy can sit in it while another stands on the back of it to reach a high object, and a third dives behind it to avoid being shot

 

4D6 Hand Attack, bulky, cannot use TK or Stretching while using Hand Attack

2D6 Hand Attack or 1/2D6 HKA, usable by up to 4 others, use of power destroys Stretching and TK abilities

 

2D6 RKA, Continuous, Damage Shield, 1 charge lasting 10 minutes, use of charge destroys chair, requires fire to begin

--this can technically be used at the same time as any of the other powers, though there are obvious penalties that would come with that

 

+10 Str, 0 End, only to brace door, one direction only

 

5 Str TK, 0 End, Area Effect (whole world), selective, extra time (10 minutes), requires screwdriver, limited targets (however many screws are in a chair), only to hold up things that can be screwed into walls

 

2D6 Cosmetic Transform, 0 End, dirty hands to clean hands

 

+2 Concealment rolls, only to hide boogers and chewing gum

 

+2 Comeliness, room only, +2 to Seduction rolls ("sexy chair"), 

 

1D6 Healing, stun only, only vs animals that are teething, eliminates +2 Comeliness and +2 to seduction rolls

 

15 Str Telekinesis, Area Effect, Trigger (stranger walks through room), Activation 8-, only in the dark or when target not paying attention, only to martial throw

plus Martial Throw maneuver

 

 

 

There you go.  Obviously I didn't list every power, and I didn't fully explain which slots can be used with one another.  It looks like this thing is going to cost you well over 100 points.  But that's what you get for wanting a chair.

 

 

Or, you know, you could just say it's a 2 Def, 4 Body object that is about yea tall.

[Nolgroth]

Or, you know, you could just say it's a 2 Def, 4 Body object that is about yea tall.

 

And that is the crux of it. It is why I am becoming ever more enamored with FATE. If the group agrees with all of your previous examples of what a chair is/does, then it just does it. The same with almost anything else. If necessary, you throw some Aspects or even Stunts on it and the game runs smoothly.

 

Still was a fun read to see you illustrate many different uses for the chair in Hero terms. I would not do that these days, but again, it is a pleasure to watch people get creative. 

[massey]

Yeah, it was an exercise in ridiculousness. While kinda fun, it misses the point of what the game is supposed to be. I like being able to make my character writeup work exactly how I want it to, but a lot of people seem to get really hung up on making players pay for stupid stuff.

 

The water faucet in your house isn't bought as life support.

[ghost-angel]

I'd argue you're not supposed to model things like Chairs, and Swiss Army Knives, and Spoons, and Buckets Of Water in Hero.

 

I was working on a Module several years ago, converting from 5E to 6E, and the writer had literally created stats for every bit of furniture, and got so caught up in it chairs in different rooms had different values for Def/Body and other such minutae. It was utter nonsense.

 

It's like when I look at Weapon Tables in Fantasy games (or worse Gun Tables in Modern Games); It's total number salad. You do not really need to create unique, different, ultimately bogged down, stats for each model and maker. A sword is a sword - some are slightly longer, some thinner, some wider, some have a longer hilt; In my mind that's all Special Effect. It's why I shy away from gun-porn levels of Dark Champions, it's entirely too much. Small Handgun - Medium Handgun - Large Handgun is all you should need, and then you just say whatever random gun stats it's got and be done with it.

 

Enough to drive a man nuts with so much detail - you just end up with pages and pages of 'builds' for no particular reason. You're taking time away from creating the Story & Setting.

[Lucius]

I'd argue you're not supposed to model things like Chairs, and Swiss Army Knives, and Spoons, and Buckets Of Water in Hero.

 

I was working on a Module several years ago, converting from 5E to 6E, and the writer had literally created stats for every bit of furniture, and got so caught up in it chairs in different rooms had different values for Def/Body and other such minutae. It was utter nonsense.

 

It's like when I look at Weapon Tables in Fantasy games (or worse Gun Tables in Modern Games); It's total number salad. You do not really need to create unique, different, ultimately bogged down, stats for each model and maker. A sword is a sword - some are slightly longer, some thinner, some wider, some have a longer hilt; In my mind that's all Special Effect. It's why I shy away from gun-porn levels of Dark Champions, it's entirely too much. Small Handgun - Medium Handgun - Large Handgun is all you should need, and then you just say whatever random gun stats it's got and be done with it.

 

Enough to drive a man nuts with so much detail - you just end up with pages and pages of 'builds' for no particular reason. You're taking time away from creating the Story & Setting.

 

You're absolutely right. I was wasting time with a Variable Swimming Pool when I should have been working on a character for a friend, or figuring out what my players are going to find when they get to Waymeet, or building stuff I will actually USE in either the game I'm running or the game I'm playing in.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary was trying to tell me that, actually, but do I ever listen?

[ghost-angel]

 

Didn't mean to call you out specifically - and I do find this discussion interesting (and some of your builds as well, especially as a thought exercise in creating Builds from Effects); but in the end, sometimes we just need to know when we've outsmarted ourselves.

[Lucius]

 

Well, I don't think the Variable Swimming Pool is a COMPLETE waste of time - creativity never is, and neither is fun, and it was both.

 

But it is the sort of thing that can give people the wrong idea about Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

"There's a dozen valid ways to ride a palindromedary!" could be a good thing - or could be a bad thing...especially if palindromedary riding is totally optional to begin with

[Lucius]

Back to the beginning -

 

I'm making a character that can create or control up to 1 cubic meter of water as their mutant power. It's in a multipower for a few effects (change enviroment -run speed - the floor is wet, a blast of 5d6 with a water special effect to represent dropping it on someone (weighs 1000 kg), a low point summon to make a 1 meter tall water elemental, telekinesis (water only) )

 

The last trick I'm trying to add is the ability to fill up people's glasses at a party.  Honestly it could probably be hand waived but I'm curious as to how to mechanically pull it off.

 

Transform air to water? Seems easiest.  How would it be written up? Are there better options?

 

The idea is that he COULD fill a swimming pool..... eventually...

Antics with various Powers aside, the best way to fill a glass is with the 3 pt Power Skill (to fill one a time maybe not even make a roll for it.) The best way to fill a swimming pool is to use that Blast Power.

 

edit: Clarification, the Blast is the best choice because the character already has the power and it should be able to fill up a swimming pool.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says go ahead, have a blast!

[Doc Democracy]

Most of us, looking at the introductions thread, were around long enough to remember HERO as Champions.  Remember how simple it used to be to be a scientist?

PS: Scientist....

 

:-)

 

I think it all depends on how you want your game to run.  I love the Ultimate Skill book but actually I hate having to think about all the skills my Nuclear Scientist might need to do what I think a nuclear scientist might be expected to know...

 

I am regressing in a lot of ways towards 2nd Edition but at the same time evolving towards a more narrative way of running 6th Edition.  :-)

 

Doc

[Christopher]

For example, I wouldn't care if someone used their RKA 2d6 fireblast to burn wood for a campfire (as opposed to making them buy the appropriate Life Support).  I just can't bring myself to get worked up about the little things. 

That is part of the minor effects special effects can give you. And/or the Power Skill.

It is only about compensating for the Environmental effect while still having most of the usual tools around (Firewood).

 

There are a bunch of ways to do it legally.  Filling a swimming pool isn't exactly a combat power.  It's something where the GM should be pretty easygoing with the players on letting them do it.  "Your superpower can be used to substitute for a garden hose???  That's unbalancing to my campaign!!!"  Riiiiight.

First rule of D&D magic system:

If the spell exists and deals no damage, we will find a way to weaponise it. Especially Cantrips!

 

That is why the Hero system choose to go with powers, rather then prewritten spells/abilities. The powers have clear and unambigious limitations/purposes, so there is no such room for abuse.

I mean you could logically disable human torch with that power. Or drown somebody in it (until unconscious). Or supply an entire team for a trek through the desert. Just think of the opportunites if you (or anyone in your group) has Life Support for water:

 

At the end of 6th Edition Vol. 2 there is a chapter called "Changing The System" - in it are the 8 Meta-Rules of Hero. They are not lines in the sand, hard fact, Laws Of Hero. They're the guiding principles that allowed the rest of the system, and a game, to construct itself with some internal consistency.

 

In summation:

1. One Damage Class = 5 Points.

2. Every Attack has a Defense.

3. Avoid 'fixed' or 'absolutes' in the game.

4. Point cost should follow balance (more powerful = more expensive).

5. Do not use one Power to emulate another Power.

6. Given two (ore more) equally valid builds, use the more expensive one.

7. Powers are "generic", there are no Special Effects built into the system.

8. You can change anything to suit your game/play style better.

Future Proofing the design for all futrue developers:

 

We've entered the Spoon Problem at this point; how do you model a Spoon in Hero? "VPP; Only Things A Spoon Can Do"

 

The problem is if you take too broad an approach to modeling you invariable don't model what you want to accomplish and get bogged down and drown in your own thought process.

 

It's water. Pick a mode of entry based on your initial desired Effect, the rest can either be modeled as you change Effects or simply a Common Sense approach hand wave (yes, you can do that, no you can't do that, and so on).

 

This also butts up against an (minor) inherent limitation of Hero itself; an Effects Based System means you have to have an Effect in mind first, before you can even really build something. An idea as simple as "summon water" becomes a rather large discussion because "water" has no Effect, it's a Special Effect. It doesn't DO anything until you apply it somewhere - and then suddenly different builds make sense based on the situation.

That is the problem with water. It is a very mundane material, but with a abundance of possible effects.

6E2 even contains a complete set of rules how specific special effects behave underwater.

 

Because it is also one of the most important natural materials for humanity. The biggest stepping stone of "can there be life on that planet?" is usually "is there liquid water on that planet?"

 

Some people have had bad experiences in game that make them cautious about any odd request.  They get suspicious, and think somebody is trying to pull one over on them.  But sometimes a fun, useless power is just a fun, useless power.  If your power has no Game Effect, and is just flavor, then it should be very cheap.

Or cost nothing at all. See the "what not to spend points on" rule.

But yes, it is the D&D spelllist problem all over again

 

I'd argue you're not supposed to model things like Chairs, and Swiss Army Knives, and Spoons, and Buckets Of Water in Hero.

 

I was working on a Module several years ago, converting from 5E to 6E, and the writer had literally created stats for every bit of furniture, and got so caught up in it chairs in different rooms had different values for Def/Body and other such minutae. It was utter nonsense.

 

It's like when I look at Weapon Tables in Fantasy games (or worse Gun Tables in Modern Games); It's total number salad. You do not really need to create unique, different, ultimately bogged down, stats for each model and maker. A sword is a sword - some are slightly longer, some thinner, some wider, some have a longer hilt; In my mind that's all Special Effect. It's why I shy away from gun-porn levels of Dark Champions, it's entirely too much. Small Handgun - Medium Handgun - Large Handgun is all you should need, and then you just say whatever random gun stats it's got and be done with it.

 

Enough to drive a man nuts with so much detail - you just end up with pages and pages of 'builds' for no particular reason. You're taking time away from creating the Story & Setting.

This is one of the big issues I have with Shadowrun, personally. They still balance by explicit rule, rather then with any form of caps*.

Armor, but especially weapons, cyberware, bioware, nanoware is riddeled with "stuff that does about the same, but with different max bonus, essence and money cost".

 

*Hero just says "A Complication that is not hindering is not worth any points". In SR 4 Mages could take a Disadvantage that makes them less compatible to Cyberware. But the rules already make Cyberware unsuiteable for magic users (beyond the D&D/arcane mage in armor level incompatible). Mages could (and did) take it, without ever getting any additional disadvantge. Because them using Ware' was stupid to begin with.

In SR5E they fixed that. The Disadvantage now has a extra rule/effect for mages/technomancers. And they totally missed that Adepts are not affected at all.

[Sean Waters]

Chaps.
 
(By which I mean 'fellows/guys/gentlebeings' as opposed to those leather things cowboys and Tatum Channing wears)
 
I'm wondering whether we oughtn't to have an 8th edition Hero.  I know I've been away a while, but I haven't spotted one in the making.  The joy (for these boards) and horror (for anyone trying to understand Hero) is that you can do things any number of ways.
 
My hope used to be that we could define everything, basically create a physics for the game world where everything worked.  You can't, really.  What I'd do, if I were drafting a new edition, or creating a house rule, is just have a 5/10 point adder 'versatile' (the cost depends on utility).  You append that to another power, say an energy blast, that already has an appropriate special effect and then you can do minor useful but not powerful things.  The adder would specifically state that it could tread on the toes of other specific powers, so overlap would not concern us.
 
So: you have your 5d6 EB (water cannon) and a Versatile adder.  That allows you to do all sorts of stuff, related to the main power's ability to project water as a weapon.  The water could hang around, you could drink it, you could spray it in the air to water crops or simulate a (small) rain shower.  You could climb up a ladder with an empty bucket, fill it with water and drop it on someone, you could short out electrical equipment, you could waterboard someone, you could water down someone's beer, you could do all kinds of things, and that is fine, because all that really is is a creative and descriptive use of a power that you've already got.
 
Many GMs will allow this already, or allow you to make  Power Roll to do stuff like this (if you are not doing it all the time).  The point is that this is small stuff we should not sweat.  The first rule of Hero should be that we trust the GM and players.  Could this all be abused?  Not really: Swimming Pool Man could decide he wants to summon water in the brain of a nearby opponent and make them water drunk so they are more susceptible to distraction or suggestion, and the GM would laugh and say no.
 
Of course that would rather scupper a lot of these discussions, but it would make the game better.  I think.
 
Water powers produce water, ice powers produce ice (you can chill stuff!) and electricity powers produce electricity, so you can jump start a car or maybe even defibrillate a heart.  All of that stuff is roleplaying at its best.
 
So, I'm with the various posters who have suggested it does not need modelling, well, almost: I think you ought to pay something for versatility, just so that you can better delineate your character concept, and differentiate it from another character who is not so versatile.
 
Also, if still not convinced, what if the PCs are fighting in a sports centre and there is a swimming pool there (full of water).  Would we quibble that they can not use it cushion a fall, just because they did not pay for damage reduction (OAF: swimming pool, only v falls)?
 
Hopefully not.
 
As I get older and, well, older, my view is that players should pay for what their characters can do, and certain things (mainly combat abilities) need to be pretty well defined, but everything else just needs to be recorded and paid for, and precise details are not that important.
 
The problem with that approach, I suppose, is logic, but that is also the solution.
 
Player: Logically if I can summon a few litres of water for a few points then why not gold, or explosives?  
 
GM: Well, because its worth more than a few points, that's why.  Buy wealth with the 'summon gold' SFX or a Blast with Explosion.
 
Player: If I can summon something can I get an advantage that allows me to summon anything?
 
GM: No, you can't.
 
See: easy.

[Markdoc]

If every GM/player interaction went like this, we would not need rules at all. Long ago in the days of AD&D we used that pretty combat-oriented ruleset to run a game where PCs attended court, were involved in intrigues, wooed partners, built estates, got married and had kids. No kidding - when my PC's wife had twins, another PC gave them teddybugbears. There were no rules for that sort of thing, so we just winged it.

 

But even leaving aside antagonistic relationships or raw powergaming, there come times when even well-behaved players and the GM simply disagree strongly, each feeling that they are right. I've seen that damage a game to the point of disintegration (more than once, in fact). Good rules prevent that, by providing everybody clear guidelines in advance. It's all about managing expectations.

 

So I worry that allowing players to buy undefined adders will give them the expectation that they they have a right to do weird (and potentially unbalancing) things, because dagnabbit, they paid for it. The water in the brain example you give is one such - a simple globe of water around the head so the opponent cannot breathe is another.

 

I do agree that the way forward is not to try and give a definitive ruling on every edge case. You simply cannot do that, no matter how huge the rules become, and besides, like you, I think it is antithetical to fun. What we can do, though, is provide clear guidelines - statements of principle - to help manage expectations, and actually try to simplify the rules, removing odd constructs, going for unified approaches, etc, to help players know in advance what sort of things to expect.

 

In this case, instead of paying for an adder, I simply allow players to use their powers in inventive ways using a power skill, but with the explicit caveat that they cannot expect to gain advantages greater than they could purchase with 3-5 points* Essentially the "power skill" is a little naked variable advantage with the limitations "requires a skill roll" and "subject to environmental constraints". In this case, the general principle "You cannot get something you did not pay for" is made explicit, which does a fine job of managing expectations

 

cheers, Mark

 

*the exception being when the GM gives them something explicit to work with - a slick of spilled gasoline + Fireblast can reasonably be expected to give you a big explosion, for example.

[Doc Democracy]

 

*the exception being when the GM gives them something explicit to work with - a slick of spilled gasoline + Fireblast can reasonably be expected to give you a big explosion, for example.

 

This is one way we can take a steer from FATE.

 

I think it is helpful for things to be explicitly laid out on the table that highlights the environmental factors that might be used and allow players to define others.  

 

That spilled petrol might be useful for the additional damage to the fireblast but may also be used to change the environment for an enemy speedster.  it is amazing how often players have to be 'given permission' to do sstuff like that.

 

Putting cards on the table with that on it and even a suggestion of how it might impact play - or allow players to introduce stuff - makes a hell of a difference on how they interact with it.

 

Doc

 

PS: Welcome back Sean!!  :-)

[Markdoc]

This is one way we can take a steer from FATE.

 

I think it is helpful for things to be explicitly laid out on the table that highlights the environmental factors that might be used and allow players to define others.  

 

That spilled petrol might be useful for the additional damage to the fireblast but may also be used to change the environment for an enemy speedster.  it is amazing how often players have to be 'given permission' to do sstuff like that.

 

Probably scarred by previous GMs who always said "No!" when people tried to do something inventive - because the GM was afraid to improvise. One of the reasons I love Hero is that the mechanics are simple and (for the most part) explicit, so it's easy to improvise without fear of consequences.

 

I've never had a problem with my players using the environment to their advantage - they do so freely. On the other hand, because I have always had to teach people Hero to get a game going, I often have had players who have never roleplayed before, and therefore no preconceptions about how you "should" play.

 

regards, Mark

[Sean Waters]

There is always a bit of a disconnect between what is logical and what is allowed by the rules.  Generally I would not allow a flavour ability to cause damage, at least not directly.  I generally would not allow it to do anything that required an opponent to use a defence or make a roll to avoid, but having said that, I probably would allow something like that if the character made a Power Roll.  That is kind of what the Power Roll is for, and the rules for that are pretty woolly. 

 

Hero is a game where you pay points for utility.  You can not define every use of a power or ability in advance.  We already have SFX which allow a bit of latitude in how powers work and we already have the Power Skill.  What I'm suggesting, I suppose, is an addition to those.  A given power, for a small point cost, can be versatile.  Water Blast can probably reliably produce water you can drink or use to put out fires, even thought hat trespasses on Life Support and Suppress/Dispel.

 

Of course you can argue that, if you want to have that kind of versatility, you should buy the power in a VPP.  

 

The problem with that approach is that you wind up with everyone having a VPP and, lovely as they are, that slows the game down.  It does not prevent abuse, it formalises it.  It also complicates a game that is already complicated enough for beginners.

 

We like to think of Hero as well defined and clear (well, that is what I certainly wanted to think), or at least that we can get to a point where we all understand how Hero works because it is based on a point buy system.  Points, however, do not necessarily equal balance or even consistency as the many lengthy discussions on these boards attest.

 

My preference, therefore, would be for increased utility to be marked by a point cost, and we could certainly work on guidelines for applying that increased utility, but I would not be too bothered about getting it right every time.  Consistency within a game is more important than consistency across all games.

 

Perhaps we should have a slightly shorter Character building section and a bit more on running the game.  No matter how good the system, it will not make up for poor GMing or those determined to bend whatever rules there are.  Hero is so broad in scope there is always going to be the scope for abuse.

 

PS Thanks, Doc

[kukuli]

 I'm still less than familiar with Hero 6e, but I found this in my perusal of Champions Complete today:

 

Pg 13

 

When a character uses an ability Casually, he uses it at half effect (or less, if he prefers). For example, a character with Blast 12d6 has a “Casual Blast” of 6d6; a character with STR 50 has a Casual STR of 25; and so on. Using an ability Casually costs END as normal, but only for the amount of the ability he’s using (i.e., he would pay END for a 6d6 Blast, not 12d6). If desired, the GM can extend this rule to trivial non-attack uses of Powers, such as a character using his Fire Blast to light candles.

 

So, spend an end point and fill your gasses.

[Sean Waters]

Fill my liquids, surely?

 

 I'm still less than familiar with Hero 6e, but I found this in my perusal of Champions Complete today:

 

Pg 13

 

When a character uses an ability Casually, he uses it at half effect (or less, if he prefers). For example, a character with Blast 12d6 has a “Casual Blast” of 6d6; a character with STR 50 has a Casual STR of 25; and so on. Using an ability Casually costs END as normal, but only for the amount of the ability he’s using (i.e., he would pay END for a 6d6 Blast, not 12d6). If desired, the GM can extend this rule to trivial non-attack uses of Powers, such as a character using his Fire Blast to light candles.

 

So, spend an end point and fill your gasses.

 

Fill my liquids, surely?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kukuli]

Fill my liquids, surely?

 

 

Fill my liquids, surely?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a  really weird beverage set. and  an 8- typing skill roll.