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Selling off MCVs


Kuleneko

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You can complain about support here in the regular part of the board all you want. This ISN'T the place to complain about it. The Company board is the place to do it. To do it so vehemently and so often just comes off as being a jerk IMHO. We are fans just as much as you are. We buy the game and play it. You don't have to beat us over the head with something that none of us can change. If there's some sort of internal issue, again there's nothing we can do about it. We can't fix it. 

 

I don't think it's as much of a problem as you seem to think it is. Most questions are along the lines of "how do you build this" which get transferred to this board. What support Steve does give works fine, and is way more than other companies do.

 

Actually, if you go back and look, someone else brought it back up, not me -- so I'm unsure why you've fixated on me.  That said, I -did- ask two follow-up questions when it came back up -- and I'd like to point out that doing so is quite different from complaining (as is pointing out a legitimate challenge/barrier for new players).  Interestingly, instead of answering them you appear to have elected to deflect ... and avoid them ... and instead, attack me.  Have you considered a career as a politician?  :) (The questions still stand, by the way -- I'd like to know the answers to them.) 

 

And no one said you compared WoD to Hero; I specifically said 'things like WoD to Hero'.  I used that qualifier precisely because you said 'many game companies don't have someone besides fans on hand to have questions answered officially.'  So let's take a look at that statement.  First, fan answers aren't official answers.  Second, and most important, there just aren't many generic, OS-like games such as Hero System (that I am aware of).  Certainly there are a few ... and I feel it's fair to compare their level of support to that of Hero ... but when you claim there are 'many game companies' that don't offer what we have here ... you are clearly referring to game companies producing games that are not generic, OS-like systems such as Hero ... since there aren't many of those.  That's where comparing 'many game companies' seemed disingenuous and dismissive, to me ... because it clearly wasn't an apples-to-apples statement ... and because generic, OS-like games tend to need clarification more than less precise games.

 

But we're off topic again. :(

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I didn't compare WoD to Hero. I compared Savage Worlds to Hero. GURPS would be similar. BTW Paizo and WotC (Pathfinder and Wizards of the Coast) don't give this level of support. Those systems are even more complicated than Hero is. With the hundreds of Feats, Combat maneuvers and other things scattered over 30+ books.

While Pathfinder (and many other games) lack a "rules question" board, their authors and line developers are pretty active on their Boards, and I believe they also have a feature to "nominate" a thread topic for an FAQ question (FLAG, at least in their Rules Question board, which is a general discussion board. The Rules Question board has become Hero's FAQ. I don't particularly care WHY it has become an issue, but I do agree it is an issue Hero should address from a marketing perspective.

 

AFAIK Hero isn't paying anyone to answer questions about the game. Steve does it because he loves the system and edition he wrote. You can complain about support here in the regular part of the board all you want. This ISN'T the place to complain about it. The Company board is the place to do it.

While I agree that no one is likely getting paid to answer the questions, the Rules Question Board being the private domain of a single responder gives it a perception of "Official" status, which I believe was intentional. The fact that the source of official rules clarifications does not address the most current version of the rules is most definitely a marketing issue.

 

That said, I agree this is a good issue for the Company Question board.

 

I don't think it's as much of a problem as you seem to think it is. Most questions are along the lines of "how do you build this" which get transferred to this board. What support Steve does give works fine, and is way more than other companies do.

Steve rarely, but occasionally, transfers a thread. I have found Rules Questions getting a lot more posts of late, and I cannot remember the last transferred one.

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OK, I posted it.  In the course of doing so, I also looked at the RQ Board's recent past.  While I am certain Steve uses the two volume 6e as his source, the responses rarely seem to provide page references any more, which seems consistent with Hero having three existing, Board-Supported games presently published (Champions, Fantasy Hero and Monster Hunter International), all using the same rules with different pagination.

 

With that in mind, while I still perceive a marketing issue:

 

 

 

I think the solution could be as simple as defining HERO System 6th Edition" in the Post Here description, or if too lengthy, a Sticky Post.  I think this could be as simple as "HERO System 6th Edition is detailed in a two volume publication which is out of print, but remains available in .pdf form, and is the engine of the rules presented in Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete and Monster Hunter International, as well as other products licensed by Hero Games."

 

Practically, the issue is clearly a source of confusion - this thread is hardly the only example of a new Hero System buyer who has been confused, and posted same on the Boards. 

 

 

 

  It seems like a clarification/explanation of the rules model could dispel some of that confusion, hopefully resulting in those buyers of recent products becoming long-term Hero supporters.  They clearly have an interest - they took the time to not only check out the Boards, but register themselves and post.  It seems like good marketing to make them welcome, and help them become Hero supporters and promoters in the gaming community.

 

We can assist that by acknowledging and discussing their concerns, or we can drive them back to other systems by being dismissive of their concerns.  I think these Board members are frequently an ambassador for Hero Games, and that should be the goal.  We're here because we are fans.  We want the system to thrive and grow.  That will only happen if new fans grow the existing fan base.  We don't have to agree with their concerns to assess them with a bit of objectivity, and even sympathy. 

 

I'd also say "civility", but these Boards have always done an excellent job, on the whole, of maintaining a high level of civility even where opinions differ considerably.  This thread would be a flame war 10 pages back on many other sites.  Here, it's a reasonable discussion.

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Also worth noting -- many game companies don't have an operating system-like approach that requires official answers to ensure the operating system is being used as intended.... making your statement a rather disingenuous one, as you're comparing apples and oranges when you compare things like support for WoD to support for Hero System, for example.

 

 

To be fair- I offered up the analogy of the OS, not Tasha. I think it captures the feel of HERO well, but that's me. To respond to it, I'd say you're significantly misrepresenting the reality. First, there are many OS's out there that are primarily driven by "fans"/users- Linux leaps to mind. Heck, if I have a question about how to do something in MS Word, there's a good chance I'm going to find an answer through Google searches that lead me to non-MS affiliated message boards where experienced users talk about similar problems (using the same or different edition of the software) and what the official word is on how to do what I'm trying to do (if it's even possible)- AND what users find is a really helpful workaround way to achieve that or similar goals. Often, that's far more useful than what I went out looking for.

 

Second, there's nothing about HERO that says there is an "intended" way to use the system. There's no hint or suggestion of it, and that position is explicitly stated in the rules- play however works for you. It's Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. So while I think it's better to have a vigorous support system from system designers, it's not required.

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To be fair- I offered up the analogy of the OS, not Tasha. I think it captures the feel of HERO well, but that's me. To respond to it, I'd say you're significantly misrepresenting the reality. First, there are many OS's out there that are primarily driven by "fans"/users- Linux leaps to mind. Heck, if I have a question about how to do something in MS Word, there's a good chance I'm going to find an answer through Google searches that lead me to non-MS affiliated message boards where experienced users talk about similar problems (using the same or different edition of the software) and what the official word is on how to do what I'm trying to do (if it's even possible)- AND what users find is a really helpful workaround way to achieve that or similar goals. Often, that's far more useful than what I went out looking for.

 

Second, there's nothing about HERO that says there is an "intended" way to use the system. There's no hint or suggestion of it, and that position is explicitly stated in the rules- play however works for you. It's Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. So while I think it's better to have a vigorous support system from system designers, it's not required.

I've used the OS analogy for years among people I know since it's a good one; it was pleasing to see another use it here.  However, I'm not sure why you think I indicated Tasha brought it up -- because I don't recall stating anything of the sort.  With that out of the way, it's worth noting that analogies only go so far ... and this one's no exception.  Comparing Linux to Hero System has clearly taken the analogy too far, since: a) someone actually owns the rights to Hero System; b ) Hero System is sold (as opposed to selling support for it); and c) there is a forum for rules questions that only one person can respond to -- providing a clear separation of 'official' responses from 'fan' responses.

 

Those are just the easiest failures in the analogy for me to think of off the top of my head; I'm sure there are more.  My point is that it's a good analogy to describe how Hero System works/functions compared to many other role playing games, but it when you try to use it to describe the 'business' of Hero System ... and compare it with the 'business' of Linux ... the analogy breaks down.

 

As for 'Rules as Written' versus 'Rules As Intended' .... written words have meaning; when that meaning is unclear it is normal and natural to seek clarity from their author(s).  Solid support for what's written entails provision of that clarity; poor support for it does not.

 

To bring us back on topic:

I still contend that MCV should begin at 0 and that it's something that should be fixed in a future rev of the product.  Until that time, I think a selldown to 0 makes sense for all non-mentalists (including villains, npc's, followers, players, etc.), since MCV is no longer related/tied to EGO, since OMCV makes zero sense for non-mentalists, and since MDCV for non-mentalists is only mildly plausible (read: handwaveable), at best.  The former statement is, of course, subject to GM discretion regarding his/her game -- and for those GM's who insist on those stats remaining as base 3 for non-mentalists unless there's some exceptional reason why it would be lower, only exceptional characters with legit reasons should perform selldowns.

 

 

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The campaign I've been working on is populated by a number of groups with a fairly strong need to be competitive, so that it is seen as a weakness that can be exploited for a group to lack a teleporter, a mentalist, a blaster, etc.

 

In addition, these groups know some about each other, less about the players, who are newcomers. So they know, oh, this group has this mentalist, and this could be a problem, how do we mitigate this?

 

Additionally, there is a group, called The Outfitters, who sell gadgets to all size, including mental gadgets to groups lacking mentallists.

 

Anyway, in this context, I would be absolutely okay with someone selling back these stats. I don't need to add an element at all to put it into play, it's already in there. They will encounter mentalists AND gear that mimics mental powers.

 

In a game where mental powers don't come up, I think the stat should just be dropped. If it isn't, not only should selling it back be worth very little, but buying it up shouldn't cost much, either, since it's useless in game terms at that time. I wouldn't actually do the latter, just because it would be annoying to track, though it would probably motivate more player mental powers, but it would be better to have just made mentalism part of the world in the first place.

 

In short, if selling back OMCV is occurring in a game where that is munchkinny, then that's probably a better argument for dropping that stat entirely in that campaign than for keeping it. UNLESS mental powers are meant to be rarer than most others or gear that mimics mental powers does not exist.

 

I guess my view is, for a character with no mental powers and no design plan to develop them in a world where, barring that, they can absolutely never make a mental attack, the stat is pointless. Drop it. Whether you let them take the handful of points(which I would say, barring the character being designed to be munchkinny past those points, I personally would), or not, the stat is pointless in the campaign, and it is the GMs job to say, "okay, you'll never, ever meet any mentalists in this game, so..."

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