Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[bluesguy]

I agree someone needs to build a couple of great Hero apps for the company: a dice roller/damage calculator, a character builder, a combat hit list manager, etc.  Those would all be quite welcome.  An official module for systems like Fantasy Grounds would also be good.  But, who's gonna pay for all this?

 

Hero Combat Manager

You are describing what I have been doing with Hero Combat Manager.  I have considered making it something that runs on a mobile device.  But that is a much harder problem than most people understand.

 

My agreement with Hero is that I won't add features to HCM that would step into HD functionality (build a character).

 

I have a roadmap of features I still want/need to implement in HCM to make it a  more complete solution. 

 

Mobile solutions

I am thinking about a mobile solution, specifically for players as an 'electronic character sheet'.  The player could use the application to help them during combat, by managing things like to hit rolls, hit locations (where appropriate), damage, also when their character takes damage.

 

There are a number of technological and financial issues to overcome in doing this.

 

Technology

Building native applications for Apple iOS and Android devices requires a fair amount of skill and experience.  At my day job, I work with people who do mobile applications.  Currently there isn't a good solution for writing an application that  runs on both OSes.  So the end result would be three code bases - one for HCM, one for Apple iOS and another for Android. 

 

The other technological solution is a web based one where people point their browser to a website.  They have an account and upload a character to the site.  From there they can use the character on whatever device they have.  The biggest issue for me with is I have no idea how to do this.  I would have to get help from people I know to do this - I know all the right people.  None of them will do it for free.

 

Financial

Building an Android app has a very low entry threshold is low.  Just download the free Android tools and develop on whatever computer I want.  Also I would need a few Android tablets for test beds.  So if I buy used tablets I would guess this would cost me about ~$200 to $300.  Based on my experience with HCM and assuming I could sell such an app for $5, I would not recoup my capital costs for 3 to 6 months.  That doesn't include my time investment.

 

Building an Apple iOS app is a whole different animal.  I believe I would need a Mac; pay for the software tools; and pay to register the app.  Doing this is much more expensive because I don't own a Mac, so right off the bat that is $1000 and I would probably want to get an iPad or two for testing.  So probably $1500 and recouping my capital costs would probably take a couple of years. 

 

Building a web based solution means either hiring people to help build it or spending a bunch of time on my own to figure out how to do it.  And then I would have to set up a server (easy) and some way of insuring only paid clients could use it.  I would probably use a subscription model.  I have no idea on this one.

 

Most likely I would do an Android app, most of the code that manages combat, which is Java, has been well separated from the UI layer.  So I might be able to re-skin it.  Once I had it working and being sold, I would do a Kickstarter project to get the funds to build an Apple iOS version.  I would set the goal high enough to buy the hardware I need and hire one of my friends who does Apple iOS development.

 

 

I know in my own case I am grateful for every sale of HCM and it is a labor of love.  I don't really expect to make any significant income from this effort.

[bluesguy]

But, who's gonna pay for all this?

 

I am a project manager at a company that builds custom applications for mid to large sized corporations.  Building software is expensive.  Building software people want to use is hard.

 

I bet HD or Hero Lab would be six figure ($100k to $500k) projects if there were started today.  I don't know who has that kind of $s for a product that has a very risky ROI.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Android would be enough.  I know a lot of people use Iphones but I'm not confident any but a tiny minority are gamers, and Apple appears to be on the wane in terms of technology and market share.

[Joe Walsh]

Just as a point of potential interest, iOS/Mac OS X software tools (including virtualized testbed versions of the various i-devices) are free for Mac OS X users. Apple makes some very, very good software tools and they provide them free to their users.

 

I understand about the initial cost of Mac hardware, but just thought I'd mention that.

[massey]

Even D&D and Pathfinder don't have good character gen apps.  So I don't think that is a problem unique to Hero.

 

Unfortunately, since mobile devices are so common now, and mobile games are so ubiquitous, I think this will be a bigger problem as time goes on.  I'd love an iPhone app for Hero Designer.  I'd screw around with it in my spare time, or at work, or wherever.  Now I'm not a programmer, and I have no idea how much something like that would cost to produce, or how much work it would be.  But for Hero to really revive, it's a necessity.

 

I'm not an expert on Hero's business practices, but the biggest problem appears to be this.  A group of people went and invested a pretty good amount of money into Hero with 5th edition.  And then they needed more money for 6th, so they sold the rights to the universe to a video game company to get the needed cash infusion.  And now that money is gone, and nobody is poking their head up with another $100K or however much would be needed for another big print run of new product.  And that's pretty much what is needed at this point.  Until then, the company is just in survival mode, with the owners doing a tiny amount of work for basically no compensation, just to try and keep the game (i.e., their investment) visible.  But mostly they've cut their losses and are not planning much in the way of new product, instead content to just sell a trickle of existing PDFs and HD downloads and maintain things the way they are.

[bluesguy]

Just as a point of potential interest, iOS/Mac OS X software tools (including virtualized testbed versions of the various i-devices) are free for Mac OS X users. Apple makes some very, very good software tools and they provide them free to their users.

 

I understand about the initial cost of Mac hardware, but just thought I'd mention that.

 

Didn't know that.  That helps.  Yes Apple does make some good software development tools.

[Markdoc]

Android would be enough.  I know a lot of people use Iphones but I'm not confident any but a tiny minority are gamers, and Apple appears to be on the wane in terms of technology and market share.

 

I wouldn't make that assumption. At our gaming tables iOS devices slightly outnumber android ones and in the US, at least, iOS games still significantly outsell Android ones. That's one reason most games release on iOS first (I couldn't find global figures, but I would assume that Android is bigger globally). For the foreseeable future Apple will dominate the gaming market in  the US (see Anton Kuchera as to why)

 

I have no idea whether that difference in mobile gaming translates to RPG gaming though: the design problems with Android are going to be far less for a character design program than for a video game, and there are plenty of character design programs on both platforms. It might be a good idea to set up a pol here and see what Hero gamers here use, as a starting point.

 

cheers, Mark

[bluesguy]

the design problems with Android are going to be far less for a character design program than for a video game, and there are plenty of character design programs on both platforms.

If someone does that it won't be me.  I made a promise to Hero I that I wouldn't create anything that interferes with HD sales.

 

What I am looking into is a mobile app that is essentially a dynamic character sheet which can help a player with dice rolls and combat management (manage damage taken, endurance/charges left, etc).  The base information would come from an HDC file.

 

It might be a good idea to set up a pol here and see what Hero gamers here use, as a starting point.

Might be... My approach is sort of the same - build the Android application see how it does and then do a Kickstarter to do the iOS version.  People can vote with their $s. 

[phoenix240]

I am constantly baffled by some of the discussion I hear about Hero System impenetrable complexity and how the rpg will only accept "Rules Lite" games.... like Exalted, GURPS and most interations of D and D and other OSR games. Or when I see the same people that griped about figured characteristics doing pages of mathematical analysis and rattling off dozens of Rules Exception Abilities  they've committed to memory to determine the best build for the Half-Elven Twilight Caste Lunar Rakasha or whatever but the Speed chart leaves baffled, crying tears of frustration. 

 

Honestly, I don't see how you can get something "Rules Lite" whatever that means and still have some recognizably Hero System. Its already not that complicated IMO, the basic rules in particular. You could scrap the Power Build I guess and go Exception based design but that loses much of what makes the game Hero System (again, IMO). And I've seen Mutants and Masterminds its not "simpler" just more familiar as its based on a rules set that many gamers have used. 3rd Edition especially is pretty darn similar to Hero and just as "complicated" just has it in some different places. 

[Joe Walsh]

I was reading an old issue of Different Worlds the other day, and there was an opinion piece in it imploring gamers to stop with all the 'system snobbery': denigrating systems they don't play or even have never played.

 

The article was published in 1980, and as I read it I marveled at how little has changed in that regard.

[Tasha]

Just as a point of potential interest, iOS/Mac OS X software tools (including virtualized testbed versions of the various i-devices) are free for Mac OS X users. Apple makes some very, very good software tools and they provide them free to their users.

 

I understand about the initial cost of Mac hardware, but just thought I'd mention that.

$500 for a MacMini which will hook to any monitors, keyboards and mice one is using for their PC.

[Tasha]

I am constantly baffled by some of the discussion I hear about Hero System impenetrable complexity and how the rpg will only accept "Rules Lite" games.... like Exalted, GURPS and most interations of D and D and other OSR games. Or when I see the same people that griped about figured characteristics doing pages of mathematical analysis and rattling off dozens of Rules Exception Abilities  they've committed to memory to determine the best build for the Half-Elven Twilight Caste Lunar Rakasha or whatever but the Speed chart leaves baffled, crying tears of frustration. 

 

Honestly, I don't see how you can get something "Rules Lite" whatever that means and still have some recognizably Hero System. Its already not that complicated IMO, the basic rules in particular. You could scrap the Power Build I guess and go Exception based design but that loses much of what makes the game Hero System (again, IMO). And I've seen Mutants and Masterminds its not "simpler" just more familiar as its based on a rules set that many gamers have used. 3rd Edition especially is pretty darn similar to Hero and just as "complicated" just has it in some different places. 

 

The Philosophy of a Rules Lite Hero would simplify Character gen as it's first goal. Ignoring END would also reduce the book keeping required to play the game. Reduce the number of combat maneuvers to the basic. Prob even ignoring the speed chart at first. A product that would train people to play the game first before hitting them with the rules tome(s)

 

Even Pathfinder and D&D have a rules lite edition to hook players. Then they have their full rulebooks that include all of the crunchy goodness. For when the players/GM are more receptive to learning the more complex regular rules. The idea is to suck them in with easy to understand beginner's rules/adventure.

[Steve]

I'm currently shepherding several new players to the system in my Champions campaign, and character generation was easily the biggest hurdle I've had to deal with. Once we had a group of characters put together, the rest has been much smoother.

 

What made it easier in one case was taking an existing villain character (Shrinker) and reskinning her as a hero build. Since Shrinker is an existing villain in the game, having the two fight was actually pretty fun.

 

Having pre-built characters that can be easily modified goes a long way to getting someone to the playing part of the game faster. The new Champions book with its character templates is a big step forward in character generation, since it is more like character classes in other systems. Pick a few options and go.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Or when I see the same people that griped about figured characteristics doing pages of mathematical analysis and rattling off dozens of Rules Exception Abilities  they've committed to memory to determine the best build for the Half-Elven Twilight Caste Lunar Rakasha or whatever but the Speed chart leaves baffled, crying tears of frustration. 

 

 

Yeah its all rep, not real comparison.  Even making a Savage Worlds character requires significant math and work to figure out.  Its just what people learned and how they learned, not the complexity of the rules (unless you go really crazy like Phoenix Command).  Hero has a rep of being crazy complicated, so its considered bad now.  D&D has a rep of being simple despite being no more simple than Hero, so people prefer it.

[Joe Walsh]

Yeah its all rep, not real comparison.  Even making a Savage Worlds character requires significant math and work to figure out.  Its just what people learned and how they learned, not the complexity of the rules (unless you go really crazy like Phoenix Command).  Hero has a rep of being crazy complicated, so its considered bad now.  D&D has a rep of being simple despite being no more simple than Hero, so people prefer it.

 

To be fair, HERO is fairly complicated in comparison to the rules-light games favored by most of the rpg.net TRO crowd. But, yeah, if GURPS can find a way to thrive in the current environment (with a new PDF supplement and an issue of a dedicated magazine every month), so can HERO.

 

(To those who say GURPS isn't thriving, I ask how many RPGs out there get a new first-party supplement and a new issue of a dedicated magazine every month?  My guess is, maybe one or two other than GURPS.)

[Chris Goodwin]

Honestly, I don't see how you can get something "Rules Lite" whatever that means and still have some recognizably Hero System. Its already not that complicated IMO, the basic rules in particular. You could scrap the Power Build I guess and go Exception based design but that loses much of what makes the game Hero System (again, IMO). And I've seen Mutants and Masterminds its not "simpler" just more familiar as its based on a rules set that many gamers have used. 3rd Edition especially is pretty darn similar to Hero and just as "complicated" just has it in some different places. 

 

Or you could decide that what you want isn't the whole giant garage full of tools, and that you want something to get people comfortable with the system, with calculating OCV vs. DCV and which maneuver to use and what dice to roll when.  

 

Back in the day, with Danger International we didn't have or need the full Powers system.  It wasn't a high-budget action adventure game with Arnold Schwarzenegger and James Bond; it was a lower budget TV-style action drama game.  But it was most assuredly the Hero System.  You could pare it back to, for instance, just the rules that were available in there.  If I'm remembering correctly, the rules portion of Danger International was maybe 96 pages out of a 160 page book, and that included things like firearms, basic vehicle movement, and the like.  It told you how killing attacks and normal attacks and PD vs. ED and armor worked, without having to include the rules for how to build them and everything else as Powers.  

[Tasha]

Or you could decide that what you want isn't the whole giant garage full of tools, and that you want something to get people comfortable with the system, with calculating OCV vs. DCV and which maneuver to use and what dice to roll when.  

 

Back in the day, with Danger International we didn't have or need the full Powers system.  It wasn't a high-budget action adventure game with Arnold Schwarzenegger and James Bond; it was a lower budget TV-style action drama game.  But it was most assuredly the Hero System.  You could pare it back to, for instance, just the rules that were available in there.  If I'm remembering correctly, the rules portion of Danger International was maybe 96 pages out of a 160 page book, and that included things like firearms, basic vehicle movement, and the like.  It told you how killing attacks and normal attacks and PD vs. ED and armor worked, without having to include the rules for how to build them and everything else as Powers.  

 

Yep, it would also be nice to have a character gen that was focused like that and not on having to build everything as a power first. My biggest frustration with 5e-6e Hero is how it became the bean counter edition of the rules. With every scrap of ability costed out to the nearest point, cant give any character ANYTHING for free.

[ghost-angel]

 With every scrap of ability costed out to the nearest point, cant give any character ANYTHING for free.

 

The rules actually have a paragraph stating the exact opposite...

[zslane]

The typical RPG path for Champions gamers circa 1981 was D&D Basic Set -> AD&D (1st ed.) -> Champions.

 

If you had experience with AD&D 1st ed., which nearly 99% of Champions players did back then, then the mechanics of Champions were not only pretty easy to grasp, they made infinitely more sense by comparison. Now, I'm not necessarily including the building of characters in that assessment, but certainly the rest of the during-play mechanics, especially combat.

 

Yes, combat took longer if you had more than four players because less was abstracted away than in AD&D, but the game itself was not more complicated in any meaningful way. Instead of tracking hit points, spells, material components, and arrows, you tracked BODY, STUN, and END (or Charges). This notion that one must eliminate bookkeeping in order to make the game digestible is nonsense; there is no more to track in Champions than any other RPG with a similar degree of detail.

 

Building characters in Champions is only "hard" if you've never designed anything in your life. I guess with wargaming and computer programming in my background, designing characters felt like second nature. But honestly, I'm not sure that there is any way to make the Hero System character building paradigm fully embraceable by folks lacking a "knack" for design (i.e., building complete things from small blocks of raw elements). For them, simply handing them pre-built characters is probably the best way to go.

 

Today, if players try to come at the Hero System as their first RPG, I think they are in store for an uphill climb that is more likely to turn them off of the system than lead them into the promised land. Better, I think, to get their feet wet with a simpler game--like D&D--then introduce them to Champions 2nd ed. and then "graduate" them to a later edition, just like we did back in the day. We did it without having to cut out rules/mechanics, and I think the same is possible today if a similar path is taken.

[bigdamnhero]

 With every scrap of ability costed out to the nearest point, cant give any character ANYTHING for free.

The rules actually have a paragraph stating the exact opposite...

True, but to be fair you're talking about one paragraph out of 780 pages of rules. Accurate or not, the perception persists, and IMX it does drive a lot of people away.

[phoenix240]

Or you could decide that what you want isn't the whole giant garage full of tools, and that you want something to get people comfortable with the system, with calculating OCV vs. DCV and which maneuver to use and what dice to roll when.  

 

Back in the day, with Danger International we didn't have or need the full Powers system.  It wasn't a high-budget action adventure game with Arnold Schwarzenegger and James Bond; it was a lower budget TV-style action drama game.  But it was most assuredly the Hero System.  You could pare it back to, for instance, just the rules that were available in there.  If I'm remembering correctly, the rules portion of Danger International was maybe 96 pages out of a 160 page book, and that included things like firearms, basic vehicle movement, and the like.  It told you how killing attacks and normal attacks and PD vs. ED and armor worked, without having to include the rules for how to build them and everything else as Powers.  

 

I'm feeling some hostility or something from you? 

 

Focused books are fine and I'm not arguing against them but I'm talking about the calls to "simplify" the entire system the "Giant Garage full of Tools" as you put it. I don't know if it majority of players or not but most of the Hero fans I know, myself included got into it for the Power build and ability to construct things how I wanted. That's why I got Hero and it become my go to system. Because I didn't have to buy a new source book or wait for some one else to get around to making up what I wanted and publishing it. I could get under the hood and make a game how I wanted without deciphering the underlying principles (if there were any) like trying to create new Charms for Exalted. GURPS has a similar appeal but it takes more books to get the full tool kit and I don't care for how it does some things. 

 

So for me and I think some others going strictly to focused products without releasing the Gamer's Toolkit would be losing much of the Essence that made Hero System Hero System for me, making it just another rules set like any others. 

[phoenix240]

Edit: Already answered

 

 

[phoenix240]

The rules actually have a paragraph stating the exact opposite...

 

The books have pre built equipment, armor, weapons, Talents. There are pages of example super powers, spells, or other special abilities. You don't have to build most things from the ground up every time. At least I haven't found that to be the case. In Heroic games, if you want your character to have a pistol its just like any other game, in a superheroic you'd spend points on it but with the underlying system its easy to work out the cost (and modify) unless the campaign is allowing regular equipment for free. Then you select it. 

 

And I'm not saying its perfect or that presentation couldn't be handled better or even that more focused "simplified" products wouldn't be an asset. (I like the PS 138 approach, for example). But I do feel the real heart of the Hero System (or maybe what its become) is tied to the Powers and the ability if not the necessity to construct things as you want them. 

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm feeling some hostility or something from you? 

 

Focused books are fine and I'm not arguing against them but I'm talking about the calls to "simplify" the entire system the "Giant Garage full of Tools" as you put it. I don't know if it majority of players or not but most of the Hero fans I know, myself included got into it for the Power build and ability to construct things how I wanted. That's why I got Hero and it become my go to system. Because I didn't have to buy a new source book or wait for some one else to get around to making up what I wanted and publishing it. I could get under the hood and make a game how I wanted without deciphering the underlying principles (if there were any) like trying to create new Charms for Exalted. GURPS has a similar appeal but it takes more books to get the full tool kit and I don't care for how it does some things. 

 

So for me and I think some others going strictly to focused products without releasing the Gamer's Toolkit would be losing much of the Essence that made Hero System Hero System for me, making it just another rules set like any others. 

 

HERO System is more than just the Powers, though.  But the Powers system is what keeps a lot of people from checking it out.  

 

"It's the only system that requires a Ph.D. in calculus!"  That's an untrue statement, and we all know it.  Building Powers means adding fractions in 1/4 denominations, then multiplying and dividing.  Sixth grade arithmetic.  But that statement and that perception are the biggest road block keeping new people from getting to "OCV + 11, roll that or less on 3d6, amount you made it by is DCV you hit."  

 

The game is not difficult, not at all.  But the system is keeping people from getting to the game.  As someone on the RPG.net thread just said, it's like being sent to Home Depot and told "Make something."  Some people build the Louvre, some people curl up in the fetal position.  If you're going to say "We don't need the latter people," I'm going to look at the current "health" of Hero Games, and strenuously disagree with you.  

[phoenix240]

HERO System is more than just the Powers, though.  But the Powers system is what keeps a lot of people from checking it out.  

 

"It's the only system that requires a Ph.D. in calculus!"  That's an untrue statement, and we all know it.  Building Powers means adding fractions in 1/4 denominations, then multiplying and dividing.  Sixth grade arithmetic.  But that statement and that perception are the biggest road block keeping new people from getting to "OCV + 11, roll that or less on 3d6, amount you made it by is DCV you hit."  

 

The game is not difficult, not at all.  But the system is keeping people from getting to the game.  As someone on the RPG.net thread just said, it's like being sent to Home Depot and told "Make something."  Some people build the Louvre, some people curl up in the fetal position.  If you're going to say "We don't need the latter people," I'm going to look at the current "health" of Hero Games, and strenuously disagree with you.  

 

But I'm not saying that at all and I'm sure where you got the impression that I was.

 

I am disagreeing with the people that call for trashing the design system entirely. Without the tool kit aspect Hero isn't complicated at all but it isn't, IMO, all the special, especially not these days with a ton of games out there that do similar things. The Power/build system doesn't have to be included in everything no but I feel its a major, important part of the system that gives it distinction: the ability to build and customize. I think if you drop that or simplify it too much you risk alienating more players than you stand to gain. Hero's baseline mechanics are great but they're no so special and unique now they're going to pull allot of people in on their own, IMO. 

 

And as I said compared to some of the systems I've played and seen people complaining about Hero's "complexity" playing I have to wonder how much is pure perception and how much there is to lose by catering too much to it instead of working for a way to change that perception.