abort to defend question

[steph]

Hi guys, I have some small questions with the principle of abortion to defend.

1- When I use the more conventional methods such as block, dodge, dive for cover, the person who aborts got completely  a full phase to act ? 

 

EX: I aborted to dodge a sword attack.  I take a 0 Phase action to put all my CSL with all blade in my dcv, and the dodge give me 3 to my dcv right ?

 

but i know a dodge take a half  phase to do. With my another half phase can i do somethings else in the phase before the dodge ? like moving or draw a shield etc etc

 

2- when I use power for abort . I remain confused about what is legal or not. 

Legal or not?

a) Teleport for abort

desolification for abort

c) Barrier to abort

d) Dispel a power attack for defense

etc etc

 

and my question is do you impose restriction to one who abort with powers or the rules already impose some restriction ?

 

Hope i am clear english not my first language

 

Steph

 

 

 

 

[Scott Baker]

I don't know what rule book you are using.

 

Champions Complete covers defensive actions you can abort to on page 138. 6th Edition Volume 2: Combat and Adventuring covers defensive actions you can abort to on page 23.

[Surrealone]

When you abort, you sacrifice your next (full) action in order to take a DEFENSIVE ACTION (and, unless the GM rules otherwise, said DEFENSIVE ACTION is all you can do).

 

DEFENSIVE ACTIONS INCLUDE:

• Block
• Dodge
• Dive for Cover
• Activating a Defense Power
• Activating any power that provides you with more defenses than you had before you aborted (example: Density Increase) or some other significant form of protection (examples: Desolidification, Barrier centered on yourself such that no attack roll is needed, etc.)
• Decelerating or Turning (when moving, operating a vehicle, or riding a mount)
• Resisting KB (with STR or Flight)
• Use of any other maneuver, activation/use of any other power, or performing any other action deemed appropriate by the GM.

You cannot abort in a phase where you have performed an Attack Action or otherwise used the full phase (example: full move).  You can, however, abort in the next segment should something happen in that segment to cause you to need to do so.

 

From your examples, above, you typically wouldn't be able to shift CSL's AND Dodge; most GM's would make you choose to EITHER shift the CSL's OR Dodge. You also cannot teleport/run/swim/fly out of the way, but you CAN use teleport/running/swimming/flight for a Dive for Cover maneuver in order to get out of the way.

 

Unless your GM says otherwise, you cannot abort to Dispelling an attack, as the rules for Dispel clearly state that you must have a Held Action in order to use Dispel to protect yourself from incoming attack -- specifically because you're using Dispel to 'attack' the incoming attack (even though you don't have to roll) ... and you can't 'attack' when aborting.

[steph]

 

From your examples, above, you typically wouldn't be able to shift CSL's AND Dodge; most GM's would make you choose to EITHER shift the CSL's OR Dodge. You also cannot teleport/run/swim/fly out of the way, but you CAN use teleport/running/swimming/flight for a Dive for Cover maneuver in order to get out of the way.

 

 

Even if Shift CSL is a 0 Phase action ?

[bigdamnhero]

but i know a dodge take a half  phase to do. With my another half phase can i do somethings else in the phase before the dodge ? like moving or draw a shield etc etc

Technically no; aborting to any action uses up your entire Phase. As a GM I might allow a player to abort to two 1/2 Phase defensive actions at once, ie - dodging and readying a shield, if it seemed appropriate to circumstances and wasn't abused; maybe require a DEX Roll at a penalty along the lines of the Multiple Attack rules?

 

Legal or not?

a. Teleport for abort

b. desolification for abort

c. Barrier to abort

d. Dispel a power attack for defense

a. Teleport - You can't normally abort to movement (even Running), although I'll sometimes allow this if it makes sense. You can however Dive For Cover with Teleportation.

b. Yes

c. Yes, although I probably wouldn't let a character englobe someone as a defensive action.

d. Not generally; Dispel is an attack power. Again, unless the GM makes an exception.

 

Even if Shift CSL is a 0 Phase action ?

Under rules as written, no - that's the downside of aborting (compared to if you had a held action). That said, many GMs may allow it for dramatic reasons as long as it's not abused.

[Surrealone]

Even if Shift CSL is a 0 Phase action ?

 

Characters can perform Zero Phase Actions at the beginning of a Phase or after making a Half Phase Action ... but NOT after making an Attack (and, obviously NOT on Segments in which they do not have Phases).

 

Since aborting entails giving up the entire next Phase in order to take a DEFENSIVE ACTION in a Segment where the character does NOT have a Phase, the entire next phase would be sacrificed to shift CSL (regardless of it being a Zero Phase Action) -- assuming the GM felt that shifting CSL qualified as a DEFENSIVE ACTION and permitted it.

 

In a nutshell, when you abort you get to take a DEFENSIVE ACTION at a point where you do not have a Phase.  That DEFENSIVE ACTION could be to shift your CSL or it could be to Dodge -- but I don't think you can do both (regardless of the fact that you COULD do both during a Phase).

 

Unlike bigdamnhero, I've -NEVER- seen a GM allow CSL shifts in combination with maneuvers as a single DEFENSIVE ACTION to which one can abort -- unless the CSLs were somehow tied to the maneuver (i.e. the CSL's had limitations that resulted in them ONLY being applicable if the maneuver was being performed -- in which case they were basically an extension of the maneuver and treated as one action).  IIRC, under 6e RAW, CSLs that have limitations automatically apply only to OCV, so in a 6e world it would actually have to be DCV linked to the maneuver instead of CSLs ... to make sense.

[ghost-angel]

Most GMs allow one to change their CSL assignments when performing a Dodge, however. Especially if said CSLs pertain to a Martial Art and you are performing a Martial Dodge.

 

It's one of those small things that many groups ignore for dramatic purposes.

[Surrealone]

I don't believe that's RAW.  I agree it makes sense if the CSL's are somehow TIED/linked to the manuvers. 

 

It's probably less relevant in high speed games (say average speed of 6 or more), but in games where average speeds are 2 or 3 ... that's a pretty serious allowance ... specifically because you're stuck doing whatever you aborted to for a (comparatively) LONG time -- which means you gain the benefits of the CSLs -and- the maneuver for that very long time.  That's ripe for abuse...

[Nolgroth]

I see nothing that would indicate that you couldn't shift CSLs to DCV only. It is a 0 Phase action. If you can Abort in the first place, you are between Phases and the Abort action removes your next Phase. In that case, I would rule that the CSL allocation would be for that next Phase (the one lost for the Abort). Plus, for me, it makes perfect dramatic sense to put everything into defense if the situation is dire enough to warrant an Abort in the first place. That's my take anyway,

[Surrealone]

I'm with you on that Nolgroth.  But the original question entailed being able to shift CSL's -and- Dodge during an abort.  Obviously if you sacrifice the entire next Phase to shift CSL's, you can't also sacrifice that same next Phase to Dodge.

[bigdamnhero]

Honestly, it never actually occurred to me that you couldn't use CSLs with Dodge if you're Aborting to Dodge. I think you may be right about RAW, but the more I think about it the less sense it makes IMO.

[bigdamnhero]

Aha! 6e2 p21 says:

A character may perform more than one defensive Action while Aborting — such as Aborting to Dodge and simultaneously activating a Defense Power — provided they’re not mutually exclusive.

 

CC p138 says basically the same thing:

A character cannot Abort to a movement Action or an attack. He may perform more than one defense Action while Aborting (such as Aborting to Dodge and activating a Defense Power) provided they’re not mutually exclusive (like Dodge and Block).

I would interpret that to mean that Dodging and shifting CSLs to DCV are not mutually exclusive, and are therefore permitted.

 

[Edited: I'm trying to be better about including CC page references along with 6e1/2 references]

[Surrealone]

Nice find!  I interpret that to mean that you could perform a skill, and a maneuver, and activate a power (or several) all at once. I also feel that I stand corrected, as a CSL shift would certainly fall under this.

 

Clearly Block and Dodge are mutually exclusive.  Dodge and Dive For Cover obviously are, too.

 

Can you think of any maneuvers that qualify as DEFENSIVE ACTIONS that aren't mutually exclusive?

[Nolgroth]

I'm with you on that Nolgroth.  But the original question entailed being able to shift CSL's -and- Dodge during an abort.  Obviously if you sacrifice the entire next Phase to shift CSL's, you can't also sacrifice that same next Phase to Dodge.

 

I apologize that I wasn't clear. I was endorsing both the CSL switch and the defensive maneuver.

[Nolgroth]

Nice find!  I interpret that to mean that you could perform a skill, and a maneuver, and activate a power (or several) all at once. I also feel that I stand corrected, as a CSL shift would certainly fall under this.

 

Clearly Block and Dodge are mutually exclusive.  Dodge and Dive For Cover obviously are, too.

 

Can you think of any maneuvers that qualify as DEFENSIVE ACTIONS that aren't mutually exclusive?

 

I'm not sure that many maneuvers could stack, but I imagine that Dodging, allocating CSLs to DCV, and activating a Force Field power would all stack. I just cannot think of any maneuver combinations that would apply. Hero has a lot of options in that regard so I may be overlooking something.

[Surrealone]

Interestingly, I've never had a GM allow multiple defensive actions -- all have permitted exactly one action.  My current GM is going to raise an eyebrow if/when I stack -- but he plays strict 5er RAW, so this will be an interesting rabbit to pull out of the hat when it's needed.  The verbiage bigdamnhero quoted is also buried in 5er (I dug it up).

 

It's always good to learn new things!

[IndianaJoe3]

c. Yes, although I probably wouldn't let a character englobe someone as a defensive action.

 

I'd allow englobing a target but not an attacker.

[Christopher]

Even if Shift CSL is a 0 Phase action ?

That you need to be "in phase" is exactly what seperates a "0-Phase" and a "Action that takes no time". And is why a "No time" Trigger costs more then a "0-phase" trigger.

Of course as we figured out you are indeed "in phase" during aborting and thus can take 0-phase actions while aborting.

 

You abort your to take your next phase early. During that early phase you are only allowed defensive actions. A totally different mater is what constitutes a "Defensive Action" and is thus allowed during abort:

- Dodge, Block, and dive for cover are generally allowed. They are canonical examples. They are also mutually exclusive (I think by virtue of the "ending" your phase).

- Turning on Defense powers (that need activation) is allowed.

- Switching CSL to DCV is by definition a defensive maneuver in my book at least.

- Desolid or englobing an ally are "the GM has to rule" case.

- If you use a Defensive Martial Maneuver that has an offensive component, only the defensive element applies. HSMA gives you rules and example builds for such a maneuver (like a block that also grabs the attacker).

- I think Damage Shields had a special mention somewhere in thier rules.

- Deflection and Reflection can generally not be used with a Aborted Block (as thier rules explicitly state).

- I can't quite rememebr what the rules for the duration of penalties from maneuvers were (half DCV of haymaker), but I think they were "until next phase". Wich you take via aborting. (Actually even if you had no CSL to switch, no dodge or dive for cover availible and no power to activate or switch too you could still abort just to get rid of the penalty of your last maneuver.)

 

I'm not sure that many maneuvers could stack, but I imagine that Dodging, allocating CSLs to DCV, and activating a Force Field power would all stack. I just cannot think of any maneuver combinations that would apply. Hero has a lot of options in that regard so I may be overlooking something.

What if your character has a default VPP (Full Phase to switch)?

 

It would be a defensive action to (try) to change the VPP to a defense power under most GM's.

However it would also be a full Phase action, so it would be exclusive with Dodge or Dive for Cover (I think what makes Block/Dodge/DfC exclusive is that either of them is a "Phase Ender")

Since it is a Full Phase action, you could also not take a 0-Phase action to activate a switched-to-power (so Desolid and the like are out for this one case).

 

A half phase to switch would be different (as you can still take a 0-Phase action and still have a half phase left to take another maneuver).

[Christougher]

I'd allow englobing a target but not an attacker.

 

Force Wall / Barrier rules require an attack roll to use the power at range.  That makes it a pretty clear distinction in my book.  You can abort to one point blank, but not to one at range. 

 

Chris.

[IndianaJoe3]

Force Wall / Barrier rules require an attack roll to use the power at range.  That makes it a pretty clear distinction in my book.  You can abort to one point blank, but not to one at range. 

 

Fair point, but I'd allow it anyway. It's both clearly defensive and heroic. GM permission would be given.

[Hyper-Man]

Force Wall / Barrier rules require an attack roll to use the power at range.  That makes it a pretty clear distinction in my book.  You can abort to one point blank, but not to one at range. 

 

Chris.

 

 

Fair point, but I'd allow it anyway. It's both clearly defensive and heroic. GM permission would be given.

 

It also seems very similar to Diving For Cover used to put the character between an attack and another character.

[bigdamnhero]

I'd allow englobing a target but not an attacker.

Yes, that was what I meant to say; good clarification.

[Tasha]

Interestingly, I've never had a GM allow multiple defensive actions -- all have permitted exactly one action.  My current GM is going to raise an eyebrow if/when I stack -- but he plays strict 5er RAW, so this will be an interesting rabbit to pull out of the hat when it's needed.  The verbiage bigdamnhero quoted is also buried in 5er (I dug it up).

 

It's always good to learn new things!

from 6e2 pg 21 under aborting an action

"A character may perform more than one defensive Action while Aborting — such as Aborting to Dodge and simultaneously activating a Defense Power — provided they’re not mutually exclusive. For example, a character cannot Abort to Dodge and Block; both are Combat Maneuvers and cannot be performed together."

 

So you CAN abort, then reapply CSL's with the Dodge or other action. Which DOES make sense as the abort is a NEW phase.

[Surrealone]

Tasha,

I take it you didn't read posts 12 and 13 in this thread?

[Tasha]

Tasha,

I take it you didn't read posts 12 and 13 in this thread?

 

I was skimming and missed that.