Called Shot With Surprise in 5E

[g3taso]

I’m thinking about using called shots as sneak attack damage. For the sake clarity, I will assume I have Penalty Skill Levels: +8 OCV vs. Hit Locations w/ Sneak Attack (8pts), and I shall not include any strength in terms of damage.

 

Sneak Attack, Called Shot to the Head, And Assuming It Hits. Weapons are a 1d6KA knife and for comparison a 2d6N club

Targeting the Head: -8OCV modifier, STUN5, BODYx2, N  STUNx2. With Surprise (aka Out Of Combat) modifier is ½ DCV and STUNx2.

 

Question: In this situation, I understand that a 1d6 dagger would do (by average damage rule) 6BODY and 60STUN. With a club we would have 2d6x(5)x2x2 which by average damage rule would be 120STUN.

 

Question: I understand 8 Penalty Skill Levels: +8 OCV vs. Hit Locations w/ Sneak Attack to be righteous. Or is this a 2-pointer?

 

Anything else I might have missed?

 

[Manic Typist]

If it's a sneak attack, then Hit Location modifiers are halved. So it'd only be -4 to target the head.

[g3taso]

Well that is certainly awesome, and I had forgotten it completely. And I shall note it down while the rest is pondered.

 

I amend my preface to ask:

I’m thinking about using called shots as sneak attack damage. For the sake of clarity, I will assume I have Penalty Skill Levels: +4 OCV vs. Hit Locations w/ Sneak Attack (4pts) which is offsetting the halved -8OCV Hit Location Modifier from surprise, and I shall not include any strength in terms of damage.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Skill levels to offset location modifiers are Penalty Skill Levels, so they should be bought using that skill rather than Combat Skill Levels.  6th goes into better detail explaining how they're used, incidentally.

[Hyper-Man]

Your damage totals are WAY off.

 

Using a Dagger doing 1d6 Killing

Average Body for 1d6k = 3.5  

x2 for targeting the head = 7

The Maximum Body damage possible = 12 (with an initial roll of 6 and x2 for Head Location)

 

The Hit Location based Stun multiple applied to the Base Body damage roll/average (still 3.5) which is an average of 17.5 Stun.

The Maximum Stun damage possible = 30 (with an initial roll of 6 for Body and x5 for Head Location)

 

A basic Club as presented in 6e2 and Champions Complete does 4d6 Normal

Average Body for 4d6 Normal = 4 Body

x2 for targeting the head = 8 Body

The Maximum Body possible = 16 (with an initial roll of 4 "Sixes"* on the dice with x2 Body for Head Location)

*The odds against rolling 4 "sixes" is extremely high.

 

Average Stun for 4d6 Normal = 14 Stun

x2 for targeting the head = 28 Stun

The Maximum Stun possible = 48 (with an initial roll of 4 "Sixes" on the dice with a x2 Stun for Head Location)

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

g3taso,

 

The various threads you have started recently seem to indicate that you are looking for exploits in the system and there is nothing wrong with that as a fun exercise.  However, it would probably serve you better in the long run to actually learn the basic functions of how HERO combat is designed to work normally before worrying about the neat edge cases. 

 

Just my 2 copper pieces

 

HM

[ghost-angel]

Also remember, the Body Multiplier on Hit Locations is After Defenses. A decent helmet will mitigate some of the killing part.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Correct, stun multipliers before defenses, body after.  Even with normal attacks.

[g3taso]

Your damage totals are WAY off.

 

Using a Dagger doing 1d6 Killing

Average Body for 1d6k = 3.5  

x2 for targeting the head = 7

The Maximum Body damage possible = 12 (with an initial roll of 6 and x2 for Head Location)

 

The Hit Location based Stun multiple applied to the Base Body damage roll/average (still 3.5) which is an average of 17.5 Stun.

The Maximum Stun damage possible = 30 (with an initial roll of 6 for Body and x5 for Head Location)

 

A basic Club as presented in 6e2 and Champions Complete does 4d6 Normal

Average Body for 4d6 Normal = 4 Body

x2 for targeting the head = 8 Body

The Maximum Body possible = 16 (with an initial roll of 4 "Sixes"* on the dice with x2 Body for Head Location)

*The odds against rolling 4 "sixes" is extremely high.

 

Average Stun for 4d6 Normal = 14 Stun

x2 for targeting the head = 28 Stun

The Maximum Stun possible = 48 (with an initial roll of 4 "Sixes" on the dice with a x2 Stun for Head Location)

 

HM

So are yours. With surprise (out of combat), your 17.5 stun before being applied is actually 35 for the killing attack. And the N attack would be off as well. But I appreciate your clarifying my thinking so I could arrive at the correct answer.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

My house rule is that attacks from surprise half CON for purposes of being stunned, not double stun.  When you walk into the cupboard door by accident it doesn't knock you out any more than being bonked in the head but it hurts more than usual out of sheer surprise.

 

But I do like the thinking of using this as backstab rather than the multipliers etc used in other systems.

[g3taso]

But I do like the thinking of using this as backstab rather than the multipliers etc used in other systems.

 

That's where I was going with it. We are essentially playing a Pathfinder game (set in Forgotten Realms) with Hero, since many of us are familiar with FR. In my case, I'm a rogue/assassin kind of guy looking to have my sneak attack damage without resorting to crazy stuff like Flame Bolt. In this case, sneak attack using hit location rules seems to make good sense.

 

In short, this appears to be how it works:

Example 1: Attacking with 1d6HKA dagger with a called shot to the head, with surprise

a) Stun Applied to Defenses: 1d6x5x2= 35 STUN

BODY Applied to Defenses: 1d6x2= 7 BODY

Example 2: Attacking with 2d6N dagger with a called shot to the head, with surprise

a) Stun Applied to Defenses: as normal (doubled for surprise), then doubled after applying to defenses as per hit location (28pts average)

BODY Applied to Defenses: as normal, then doubled after applying to defenses as per hit location

Combat Modifiers: -8OCV/2 (Hit location penalty adjusted for surprise), 1/2DCV Surprise

So hitting at -4 penalty to strike the head from behind, but opponent is at 1/2DCV

(at 8DCV these two modifiers wash each other out. Higher DCV is better for me.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I built a talent for backstab, basically its a bonus to damage situational on surprise or being unseen and attacking from behind.

[Hyper-Man]

Surprise does NOT increase damage directly when combined with the Hit Location rules.

 

It only reduces the penalties for targeting a specific location.


HM

[g3taso]

Love to see that talent!

[ghost-angel]

For simulating a Sneak Attack that increases damage I would actually buy Deadly Blow (at 16pts, one of the examples is actually Sneak Attack).

 

The combat maneuver trickery here merely increases the chances of a called shot succeeding, and may not actually do a lot of damage, beyond a decent chunk of Stun.

 

It's kind of effective, it's kind of not, and it'll probably be not nearly as useful in practice as it looks on paper.

[Tasha]

I’m thinking about using called shots as sneak attack damage. For the sake clarity, I will assume I have Penalty Skill Levels: +8 OCV vs. Hit Locations w/ Sneak Attack (8pts), and I shall not include any strength in terms of damage.

 

Sneak Attack, Called Shot to the Head, And Assuming It Hits. Weapons are a 1d6KA knife and for comparison a 2d6N club

Targeting the Head: -8OCV modifier, STUN5, BODYx2, N  STUNx2. With Surprise (aka Out Of Combat) modifier is ½ DCV and STUNx2.

 

Question: In this situation, I understand that a 1d6 dagger would do (by average damage rule) 6BODY and 60STUN. With a club we would have 2d6x(5)x2x2 which by average damage rule would be 120STUN.

 

Question: I understand 8 Penalty Skill Levels: +8 OCV vs. Hit Locations w/ Sneak Attack to be righteous. Or is this a 2-pointer?

 

Anything else I might have missed?

 

A 'Sneak Attack' would only be half location modifier IF the target was not in combat. An In combat sneak attack would be -8 to hit the head (or vitals).

[Manic Typist]

Tasha's right- I treat what she describes as a "Surprise Maneuver" with appropriate OCV bonuses, as opposed to a "Sneak Attack." However, those are specific interpretations of meaning that should have been noted.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Here's how I built the backstab talent

 

Backstab

This maneuver is a method of striking a target with particular skill and accuracy, from surprise.  It is used with lethal weapons only and requires preparation and concentration to succeed

 

POWER: Ranged Killing Attack +1D6

MODIFIERS: OIF (weapon) (-1/2), Extra Time Delayed Phase (-1/4), Concentrate ½ DCV (-1/4), Must be behind target (-1/2), Only t,o targets unaware of attacker (-1/2) Only to add to weapon damage (-1/4), No Range (-1/2) [-3 1/4]

Cost: 4   END Cost: 1

[Hyper-Man]

Here is the official Talent version as presented in 6e1 and Champions Complete.

 

16    Sneak Attack: Deadly Blow:  +1d6 (Talent) (Only Works With Blows Struck From Behind Or Against Surprised Targets)

[Notes: Created as Talent per 6e1 page 113 and CC page 40]

 

16    Sneak Attack (Deadly Blow): +6 CSL's with HTH Combat (48 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Increase Damage & Only With Weapons (-1), Conditional Power Only Works With Blows Struck From Behind Or Against Surprised Targets (-1)

[Notes: Created using Talent Creation rules in 6e1 page 447]

 

HM
 

[Hyper-Man]

So are yours. With surprise (out of combat), your 17.5 stun before being applied is actually 35 for the killing attack. And the N attack would be off as well. But I appreciate your clarifying my thinking so I could arrive at the correct answer.

 

Nope. See my previous post on combining Surprise with Hit Locations.

 

Please trust me when I say everyone participating in this thread is trying to help. 

 

If any of the information in my first post was wrong I am confident that one of the other veteran posters would have called me out on it.

 

HM

[Tasha]

Your damage totals are WAY off.

 

Using a Dagger doing 1d6 Killing

Average Body for 1d6k = 3.5  

x2 for targeting the head = 7

The Maximum Body damage possible = 12 (with an initial roll of 6 and x2 for Head Location)

 

The Hit Location based Stun multiple applied to the Base Body damage roll/average (still 3.5) which is an average of 17.5 Stun.

The Maximum Stun damage possible = 30 (with an initial roll of 6 for Body and x5 for Head Location)

 

A basic Club as presented in 6e2 and Champions Complete does 4d6 Normal

Average Body for 4d6 Normal = 4 Body

x2 for targeting the head = 8 Body

The Maximum Body possible = 16 (with an initial roll of 4 "Sixes"* on the dice with x2 Body for Head Location)

*The odds against rolling 4 "sixes" is extremely high.

 

Average Stun for 4d6 Normal = 14 Stun

x2 for targeting the head = 28 Stun

The Maximum Stun possible = 48 (with an initial roll of 4 "Sixes" on the dice with a x2 Stun for Head Location)

 

HM

 

His numbers are correct.

 

Though I will point out that all targets will have a minimum of 2PD and ED. So Normal Attack Damage on 4d6 is actually worse than presented above (Remove 2 base Body and Stun before Hit Location).

[Lucius]

Nope. See my previous post on combining Surprise with Hit Locations.

 

Please trust me when I say everyone participating in this thread is trying to help. 

 

If any of the information in my first post was wrong I am confident that one of the other veteran posters would have called me out on it.

 

HM

I would like to know your rules citation.

 

If surprised OUT OF COMBAT a target takes double STUN.

 

Hit Locations also have STUN multipliers.

 

As far as I know there is no official rule about how those multipliers interact, although given the potential devastation of multiplying by 5 and then multiplying the product by 2 I wouldn't be surprised if there were such a rule and I just missed it.

 

As for what the original poster is looking or, have you considered using Haymaker?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has Defense Maneuver. You cannot get behind it, as it has no behind to get.

[Hyper-Man]

I would like to know your rules citation.

 

If surprised OUT OF COMBAT a target takes double STUN.

 

Hit Locations also have STUN multipliers.

 

As far as I know there is no official rule about how those multipliers interact, although given the potential devastation of multiplying by 5 and then multiplying the product by 2 I wouldn't be surprised if there were such a rule and I just missed it.

 

As for what the original poster is looking or, have you considered using Haymaker?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has Defense Maneuver. You cannot get behind it, as it has no behind to get.

 

I stand corrected. My Stun numbers were off by 1/2 IF the target was surprised out of combat.

 

From 6e2 page 50

Surprised

This Combat Modifier applies when a character is attacked from behind, above, by an invisible attacker, from ambush, or any other situation where he’s surprised by the attack.

 

A character Surprised while out of combat is at ½ DCV and takes 2x STUN from the attack; moreover, the penalty for any Placed Shot is halved (see 6E2 109). Double the STUN damage before applying defenses (and, in campaigns using the Hit Locations rules, before applying the STUN modifier for a location). The “double STUN” rule applies to any attack that does STUN damage — Blasts, Killing Attacks, punches, AVADs, Drain STUN, and so on.

 

A character Surprised while in combat is at ½ DCV, but Placed Shot penalties are not halved, and he takes regular STUN damage from attacks.

 

Thanks for the catch Lucius,

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

I asked Steve Long to clarify the interaction between the Defense Maneuver Talent and the Sneak Attack variant of the Deadly Blow Talent in the Rules forum:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92942-defense-maneuver-and-sneak-attack-deadly-blow/?do=findComment&comment=2490435

 

His answer indicates that the Sneak Attack variant of Deadly Blow would still work when attacking a target with Defense Maneuver VI from behind even though they are not at 1/2 DCV or taking x2 Damage due to being Surprised.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, that's why my build is more specific: they have to be unaware for it to do extra damage, not merely from behind.  Someone with Defense Maneuver IV would not suffer the extra damage