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GM Joe

Need More HERO

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On 5/22/2016 at 1:34 AM, Hyper-Man said:

 

I can mark a few more off the wishlist thanks to Ebay and Amazon:

The 3 highlighted above plus A Companion to Superworld which has arrived!

 

Now I need to consider upgrading my bookshelf as I am not sure I'll be able to make room for the 3 remaining 5e books published by Hero Games let alone anything else (a good problem to have). 

 

I also need to make sure Jason is aware of the shipping label issue with the Jacksonville USPS office before ordering anything directly through Hero Games again.

 

Finally, here are links what I currently own, my wishlist and Random Images from my gaming collection.

 

;) HM

 

Bumping as I have many updates to make. 

 

i think I have finally completed my 5e physical collection and only have a few Star Hero 6e books to get to get that finished as well. This includes 3rd party and Kickstarter stuff. PDF only stuff has not been a priority. 

 

I'll post new pics as soon as I can.

 

:D HM

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On 8/6/2016 at 3:57 AM, Hyper-Man said:

Is there anyone else out there actively attempting to assemble a complete HERO collection?

 

:)

HM

Me, but I skipped the 6E books at the time they were released and I strongly regret it now.

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On May 26, 2017 at 3:48 PM, GM Joe said:

At last, I have all the 1e stuff (click to enlarge the photos):

 

post-2197-0-42616200-1495827836_thumb.jpg

 

That GM screen was hard to find!

 

 

 

Hey, Joe--

 

I hate to bump anything this old, but I was popping through older threads (too much noise to sleep with the winds coming in and the pine limbs snapping and hitting the roof) and I just noticed that your copy of Enemies is _not_ the one with the "revised" stamp on it.

 

Other than that cover blurb ("REVISED!"), what differences are there between the two versions of that book?

 

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12 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Other than that cover blurb ("REVISED!"), what differences are there between the two versions of that book?

 

The characters were just revised based on the Champions 2nd Edition rule changes. (Some exploits were possible in the 1st Edition rules, but those were fixed in Champions 2e.)

 

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You're welcome!

 

If Hyper-Man were still with us, I'll bet he could answer that off the top of his head. :(

 

As for me, it'll take a bit of reading to jog my memory.

 

I'll try to make some time this weekend.

 

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On 10/11/2018 at 2:08 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Can I trouble you for just one 'frinstance?

 

The biggest changes from the first edition of Champions to the second are around END. For example, in 1e the END Battery gets you no bonus at x12, whereas in 2e it only takes an x8 battery to get to the No Bonus level. But the most important change regarded END and the Elemental Control (which, incidentally, was just listed with the other Powers in 1e, along with Multipower; it was only with 2e that we got a separate section for them -- with, strangely, Reduced END lumped in with EC and Multipower. Another sign of how significant the problems around END were with 1e).

 

But specifically for Enemies, as it says in the intro to the Revised edition, "The reason they were changed was to make them legal under the new rules, and to reflect the rules changes that will occur in the new, revised CHAMPIONS. The only major power change concerns the END reduction advantage when applied to the Elemental Control power. The new way to figure reduced END (which will appear in the revised CHAMPIONS) is to add the cost of any extra slots and/or boosted slots to the base cost of the elemental before you figure the cost of the reduced END cost advantage."

 

An example is Mind Slayer. In both editions, the characteristics and their costs are the same, but her EC had to change. Here are her Powers from the original Enemies book:

 

Cost	Powers
60	Elemental Control (Mind Powers)
	1 Ego Attack 6D6
	2 Mind Scan 6D6
	3 Telepathy 6D6
12	4 Telekinesis STR 30, 15 or less
12	5 Telekinetic Shield (Force Field), affects desolid objects, Invisible power, effect on a 14 or less, +10 PD +12 ED
12	6 Flight 15"
10	Ego DEfense -14
45	Reduced END cost Elemental (1 END per phase)
====
151 = Powers Cost

 

And here she is in the Revised  edition:

Cost	Powers
	EC - Mind Powers
75	1 6D6 Ego Attack at 1/2 END
22	2 STR 30 TK at 1/4 END
14	3 +10 PD, +10 ED Force Field, Invisible Power Effects (Act 14 or less) at 1/4 END
22	4 6D6 Telepathy at 1/4 END
22	5 6D6 Mind Scan at 1/4 END
22	6 15" Flight at 0 END
10	14 pts. Ego Defense
===
187 = Power Cost

That 36 point cost difference was a big point of the change from 1e to 2e. You went from being able to apply Reduced END Cost to the entire EC by paying for it just for the point reserve and having it apply to all the Powers under it (which could then individually have further applications of Reduced END Cost).

 

But you'll also note that they went from paying for the power reserve for the EC up front (60 points in this case), then being allowed to put three powers in the reserve at 1/2 that number of points for free, with additional slots only costing 1/5 the points in the reserve.

 

In toto, the EC was way, way too much of a bargain in the original edition. Combine the extra-slot cost with the further-reduced-END rules, and you could get some amazing deals.

 

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Thanks, Joe.

 

A real American hero, GM Joe is.  (sorry.  I've been fighting that one for some time, and I finally lost. :lol: )

 

I've got the 1e rules (badly, badly damaged copy I picked up years ago at a small convention, but it's readable, and I keep telling myself that one day I'll scan it, clean it up, and print myself a better version, but man-- the damage to this thing...  coffee stains, torn pages (still there, but torn)-- completely missing cover, accelerated yellowing from nicotine exposure (evidently the original owner-- or one or more owners-- smoked heavily.  The "book" still smells like cigarettes, even after twenty years of being owned by me in a smoke-free home).  It's just such a huge job, and I don't use the 1e rules at all.  Particularly EC.  I rather like the 2e rules over all subsequent rules (a well-documented fact; I know), and will likely continue using them until death makes me stop.

 

I have to be honest: I really hadn't paid much mind to the extra value of the 1e EC simply because--- and this is intended as _no_ slight to the creators, of course-- the layout of the book is something of a mess.  I understand: first attempt at publishing something like this; over-familiarity with your own work preventing you from noticing important omissions in detail, etc-- but I think _every_ subsequent edition has worked on making layout better and better, even if I'm not totally in love with the content.

 

I started playing under 1e rules my GM had-- he had made mimeographs of the character creation-relavant parts and passed them out.  Wish I still had them, if only to make part of my scanning project easier! :lol:  I found a 2e boxed set a few months after we started playing, bought it, and we started playing under those rules shortly after.  Not only did we think the END battery change was a good thing  (it's amazing how many of us had a "one-shot big gun" that we never used, but built a battery around. ;) , but it got so out of hand that Jim (my GM way back then) lowered zero-bonus cap further still.    When the END Reserve rules finally appeared, END battery became one of the rules sets that we pitched and plugged in the newer stuff (see?  I don't automatically dislike the new stuff because it's _new_.  :lol:)

 

But I have never seen the "unrevised" version of Enemies, and I was really, really curious as to just what could be different.  Reworking for the rules updates.  When you hear it, you smack your head and think "of course!  Stupid fool!  Why did you not realize?!"  But you know how it is when you're young and you're burning with passion for something and curiosity and you start to wonder "am I missing something?!  Is there a really cool idea or a character who "didn't make the cut" into the new book?!

 

Thank you, Joe, for satisfying a curiosity that has burned within me for the majority of my lifetime.  Thank you.  I know: it sounds stupid to hear from the outside, but I really can't express just how long I have wanted to know, and how badly it picked at me...

 

Thank you.

 

 

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You're welcome, Duke! I enjoy going through this stuff. I wish I had more time for that...maybe after retirement!

 

I understand the passion, though -- that's why I spent so many years searching for good copies of all the 1e stuff (oh, the joy when I found that near-mint 1e GM screen). :)   I'd missed out on 1e entirely, since I started with 2e (which, yeah, is still a great edition, no matter what the haters clinging to their precious, newfangled 3e say. :D)

 

As far as layout, yeah, 1e was...um...charmingly arranged and laid out. ;) But it did have some artwork we never saw again, from Vic Dal Chele and Diana Navarro. I like some of it pretty well, and wish they'd carried it forward.

 

BTW, Enemies 1e also has that charming Champions 1e layout. Plus, they left Utility off the Table of Contents. :)

 

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I started with 2e as well, but managed to acquire a mint 1e copy from Ray Greer in the early 1990s. It is fascinating to me to see how character write-ups, and power builds in particular, have grown in terms of sheer information density from 1e to 6e. Just look at how Mechanon has been written up through all the editions. He began as a simple, but still relatively powerful, villain (the CU's version of Ultron basically) and slowly became this unwieldy construct that takes two character sheets to fully represent.

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The appeal of highly detailed RPG things escapes me, and always has. I can admire them from afar (Harnworld and Glorantha, for instance), but every time I try to get into stuff like that, my eyes glaze over.

 

Same thing with highly detailed characters. Give me a few bits to go on and let me figure out the rest. If you've already figured all of it out for me, then it's more of a work-study program than a gaming experience for me.

 

Heck, even when I was developing RPGs professionally I didn't bother with huge write-ups. Just a personality sketch with some bits that the GM can hang his or her performance on.

 

Yet lots of folks like those highly detailed things. The ginormous two-volume Glorantha books and such sell well enough that people keep producing them, anyway.

 

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21 hours ago, GM Joe said:

id have some artwork we never saw again, from Vic Dal Chele and Diana Navarro. I like some of it pretty well, and wish they'd carried it forward.

 

 

 

We get to see it pretty regularly.  When I formalized our house rules a couple years ago- that is, typed them up and pdf'ed them, I included the artowkr ID scanned from 1e, 2e (including the villains from the 2e boxed set: that little pamphlet with the introductory adventure) and here and there some player character scans. 

 

None of us can draw. :(

 

 

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1 minute ago, Duke Bushido said:

We get to see it pretty regularly.  When I formalized our house rules a couple years ago- that is, typed them up and pdf'ed them, I included the artowkr ID scanned from 1e, 2e (including the villains from the 2e boxed set: that little pamphlet with the introductory adventure) and here and there some player character scans.

 

Very cool!

 

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I remember using the Vic Dal Chele character silhouettes on our character sheets years after we moved from 1e. We liked how more dynamic poses. A good base to start from, until I got pestered by the other players to do custom artwork. Ah memories

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I worked as Freelance artist for Hero, starting with the first iteration of Fantasy Hero. Back then I wasn’t very good, but Incould manage with slight co inking techniques. Even then, I knew I had slightly better figure work (the wizard with three arm joints casting a fireball notwithstanding. Hey it was 3’am, the day before Fantasy Hero went to the printers, with the art director brainstorming ideas as I sat there at the Hero drafting table trying to stay awake. ) but Mark was >THE< Champions artist, since 1st edition l. (At least until Storn Cook).

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I'll be straight-up honest with you:

 

If it wasn't for Mark Williams' art, I likely would have picked up V&V instead of 2e.  The local (at that time) shop where I picked up 2e had one of everything they carried (not much: the "shop" was a college kid whose grandmother let him set up a counter in the corner of her sewing boutique.  Hinesville, Ga. in the 80s, everybody! :D ) open on the counter so you could look through what was inside before buying.  I knew when I was looking at them that the V&V art was "better."  I knew that most other art was likely to be called "better" in terms of what you'd expect from an action-packed fantasy.

 

But there was something so completely human about Mark's art; something so simple and... well, _honest_ about it.  It was attainable.  It was something that my friends and I, if we really tried, could one day achieve.  It was just...  well, I guess it's like when you look at Roman statuary: the people looked like people.  I fell in love with it.  I already knew Champions: we were playing with 1e (which I had no idea had character sheets, as Jim, coming from a D&D background, just didn't think players were supposed to read certain things.  If there was only one book, then it would seem that's the book they weren't supposed to read! :rofl: )

 

I had actually gone shopping to find either a new game entirely, or something to add to my (then) growing Traveller collection.  The coveted book in those days was High Guard, and it seemed everyone had "just sold it," no matter how often you went back.  I hadn't intended to pick up "just a newer version of what we already use," particularly since I wasn't (and still really am not) a super-hero sort of person.  But Mark's art sold me. 

 

I bought as many supplements as I could afford, when I found them, so long as Mark was the artist.  No; it's not "great," and will certainly never be held as a shining example of anything (though I noticed that 5e still used Mark's drawing of Foxbat. ; ) ) unique or exceptional.  But for me, even today-- many, many years later- it's magical.  That's why I stuffed as much of it as I could into our house rules PDF: it's just not Champions without Mark Williams.

 

(though I still very much want to see the 1e poses, if someone knows where I might at least find some thumbnails of them)

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Mark's illustrations had a certain charm that gave Champions 2e a distinctive look, and carried a workman-like quality that let you know you weren't going to be getting into a game that was all glitz and no substance. I much prefer Jeff Dee as an artist, but the overall presentation of Champions 2e was much more inviting and visually accessible than V&V. Little did I know when I bought it, that I'd bought the best RPG system ever invented (you can't tell that from the artwork, unfortunately).

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Well I heard back from Jim (we keep in touch, even if we don't game together anymore). 

 

Seems he didn't know there were character sheets, either.  Apparently he was given the book by another gamer who tried it, but whose group just didn't want to leave D&D. 

 

All the better for us!  If they had liked it, I likely never would have been exposed at all. ;)

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18 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

(though I still very much want to see the 1e poses, if someone knows where I might at least find some thumbnails of them)

 

I believe this is one:

 

009.JPG

 

I'm pretty sure I have scanned PDFs of all the 1e character sheets on my home PC. Are you in search of them for actual use?

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Thanks for thinking of me, Z, but that's the 4e sheet as found in the BBB.  Or rather, one of the 4e sheets.  (I am. Not certain, but I _think_ the mannequins on those sheets first appeared on the 3e sheets, which were essentially the same, save for the logo.) 

 

But sincerely: thank you for thinking of me. 

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