ST: TOS "An errand of Mercy......er, Pompousity?

[Badger]

Anyway, watching the Organian episode tonight.  And was reminded of how I felt about them.  Am I the only who found them to be a bunch of "arrogant, holier-than-thou, pompous asses"?  I guess it always bothered me with their interference (even if it did stop war), especially considering their pacifism seemed to complicate the whole incident to begin with, time and time again.  Maybe, I would have felt better if a character called them out at the end about them interfering when they claimed to find interfering in other species "disgusting".

 

Hmm, I guess this could make for a topic considering sci-fi has had it's share of omnipotent jackasses.

[Tjack]

A valid opinion, but I think I'd agree a lot more if Kirk and the Klingons didn't first bring their war to the Organinians doorstep and second started with the ole' " you would never understand the motivations of our conflicts, so we'll take you under our wing and you don't have to worry your fuzzy lil' heads 'bout nutthin." (With every bit of racist "White Man's Burden" bullstuff those phrases entail.)

As far as the glowing people saw things it would be like if you came out on your front lawn one morning and found two tribes of monkeys flinging poop at one another, getting ready to start bashing in each other's heads. So you turn the hose on them, and when they stop they both start screeching at you. So to keep the peace to put up a fence that won't even shock them unless they do something dumb like try to climb it.

Just another opinion.

[dmjalund]

Why is this in the Fantasy Hero forum?

[Lord Liaden]

Yeah, the Star Hero or NGD forums would probably be more appropriate.

 

But I'm inclined to agree with Tjack. The Federation and Klingons brought their war to Organia and shoved it in the Organians' faces. Kirk and Spock tried to interfere with the Klingons' actions on Organia despite the natives' insistence that it was unnecessary and undesired. And they had their own arrogance turned back on them.

 

If you saw two packs of dogs about to tear each other to pieces in front of you, and you had the means to stop them, would you do it? Or just watch them kill each other?

[Burrito Boy]

If you saw two packs of dogs about to tear each other to pieces in front of you, and you had the means to stop them, would you do it? Or just watch them kill each other?

That depends on the kind of dogs involved. Two packs of chihuahuas? I'm wading in and kicking @$$. Two packs of rottweilers, pitbulls, or great danes and I'm running away crying.

[Lord Liaden]

To the Organians, Federation and Klingons were closer to chihuahuas.

[Badger]

Why is this in the Fantasy Hero forum?

 

*embarrassed*

 

Every once in a while, I go into the Star Hero when I wont to go into Fantasy and vice versa.  This was the first time I posted a thread before realizing my foolery however.  Sorry. 

 

If someone wants to move it, by all means go ahead.

[Badger]

That depends on the kind of dogs involved. Two packs of chihuahuas? I'm wading in and kicking @$$. Two packs of rottweilers, pitbulls, or great danes and I'm running away crying.

 

If they are cats and you are a certain asshat I knew from High school.  You'd throw a rock over their heads to scare them, so they end up leaping into each other and start the fight.

 

It does make some sense that they stopped it simply because it was their home planet that it was happening.  Although, if so, it still would make more sense to put all their cards on the table and scare off the interlopers,  rather than sitting back and playing medieval hippie and allowing the Herberts to escalate the tension.  So the ends are quite justified, but the means were handled in the worst way possible.

[Old Man]

To the Organians, Federation and Klingons were closer to chihuahuas.

 

Anything that results in fewer chihuahuas is a good thing.

[Lord Liaden]

 

It does make some sense that they stopped it simply because it was their home planet that it was happening.  Although, if so, it still would make more sense to put all their cards on the table and scare off the interlopers,  rather than sitting back and playing medieval hippie and allowing the Herberts to escalate the tension.  So the ends are quite justified, but the means were handled in the worst way possible.

 

I think it would be disingenuous to claim the writers weren't primarily interested in telling a dramatic story, so set up the circumstances to support that first, logic second.   OTOH the show would later go on to make a big deal about more advanced civilizations hiding their presence from less advanced ones, so as not to detrimentally impact their development. I can only imagine the impact on a civilization of learning they're sharing their stellar neighborhood with virtual gods. Even Kirk found that "unsettling."

 

Also, let's not forget what the Organian intervention really did. They weren't conquering or enslaving, they were stopping a war which would have killed millions of innocent lives. As the Organian leader called Kirk on, was he really trying to defend his peoples' and the Klingons' right to slaughter each other?

[massey]

What it boils down to is this.  The Organians were really irritating.  They didn't actually prevent a Klingon/Federation war.  The Klingons and the Federation would go on to fight for years and years.  The Organians just prevented them from going to war right at that minute.  They could have easily told Kirk "yeah, we're energy beings, so the Klingons can't actually kill us.  Or hurt us.  At all."  No, they let Kirk think that they were helpless hippies who he had to protect.  And then when he tries to protect them, they get all holier-than-thou and look down on him like he should have just let the Klingons slaughter them.  Because he should automatically assume that every helpless race about to get slaughtered are actually incredibly powerful space gods.

 

"Shame on you, Kirk, for not knowing the secret information that we refused to share with you.  You primitive unevolved monkey."

 

Space gods are snotty.

[Lord Liaden]

No disputing their snottiness.   But in fact, they did stop the war. In the subsequent ST:TOS episode, "The Trouble With Tribbles," Klingon Captain Koloth specifically invokes the binding terms of "the Organian Peace Treaty," implying the Organians arbitrated (or maybe even imposed) a treaty between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. The remaining encounters with the Klingons in TOS were much more along the lines of Cold War conflicts, in the form of diplomatic incidents or over proxy parties.

[pinecone]

No disputing their snottiness.   But in fact, they did stop the war. In the subsequent ST:TOS episode, "The Trouble With Tribbles," Klingon Captain Koloth specifically invokes the binding terms of "the Organian Peace Treaty," implying the Organians arbitrated (or maybe even imposed) a treaty between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. The remaining encounters with the Klingons in TOS were much more along the lines of Cold War conflicts, in the form of diplomatic incidents or over proxy parties.

Yes, this...at the time (I was a child then) I kind of got a "I wish some space gawds would save us from the threat of nuke-war" vibe.

 

To bring it back around to FH. I've seen Elves played in much the same same way. "Listen to your Eldars you silly monkey".

[Lord Liaden]

I do also want to point out that the Klingons didn't actually start "slaughtering" any Organians until Kirk and Spock started their sabotage against the Klingon occupying force. All the Klingons wanted from the Organians was obedience, which they were perfectly willing to (pretend to) give.The Enterprise didn't originally come to Organia to save any lives, they came to keep the planet out of the hands of the Klingons because of its strategic location.

 

But that silly misguided Human and Vulcan insisted on putting themselves in harm's way by provoking the Klingons. Then the Federation and Klingon fleets show up almost above the Organians' heads, ready to tear into each other. What's a highly-evolved life-form supposed to do?

[Lucius]

it still would make more sense to put all their cards on the table and scare off the interlopers,  rather than sitting back and playing medieval hippie and allowing the Herberts to escalate the tension.

 

Herberts?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I can't put all my cards on the table if I'm not playing with a full deck.

[pinecone]

Rare star trek referance...A bunch of space hippies encounter the Enterprise, the groups founder got hassled by a pompous goofball named Herbert, thus all pompous fuddy duddies are "Herberts".

[Narf the Mouse]

It seems like, in the end, no-one wanted the Federation and Klingons to know that the Organians were Space Gods; not even the Federation and Klingons.

 

Which basically makes the Organians Right All Along about not telling the Federation and Klingons that they are, in fact, Space Gods.

[Badger]

I think it would be disingenuous to claim the writers weren't primarily interested in telling a dramatic story, so set up the circumstances to support that first, logic second.   OTOH the show would later go on to make a big deal about more advanced civilizations hiding their presence from less advanced ones, so as not to detrimentally impact their development. I can only imagine the impact on a civilization of learning they're sharing their stellar neighborhood with virtual gods. Even Kirk found that "unsettling."

 

Also, let's not forget what the Organian intervention really did. They weren't conquering or enslaving, they were stopping a war which would have killed millions of innocent lives. As the Organian leader called Kirk on, was he really trying to defend his peoples' and the Klingons' right to slaughter each other?

 

Well, you know, I like metagaming. heh

 

Though, if the Organians were doing something along the lines of the Prime Directive*.  Then, yes the Federations and Klingons had a right to wipe each other out.  (which poke holes in the Prime Directive, not that Kirk didn't bend that badboy like a young pine tree in a rainstorm.)  *No real indication, I can find, to be fair.

 

I have been thinking about a little more,  it still seems like the Organians removed the equation of freedom of choice. Regardless, the ending will always rub me the wrong way, I guess.  (though if Organian "logic" can stump Kirk, maybe we could have used more of their interference when Kirk "logic" got wonky sometimes in the latter seasons)

 

Note: I guess with freedom of choice as it were.  It comes down to:  Do 2 civilizations have the right to settle their differences as they see fit, for better or worse?   

[Badger]

What it boils down to is this.  The Organians were really irritating.  They didn't actually prevent a Klingon/Federation war.  The Klingons and the Federation would go on to fight for years and years.  The Organians just prevented them from going to war right at that minute.  They could have easily told Kirk "yeah, we're energy beings, so the Klingons can't actually kill us.  Or hurt us.  At all."  No, they let Kirk think that they were helpless hippies who he had to protect.  And then when he tries to protect them, they get all holier-than-thou and look down on him like he should have just let the Klingons slaughter them.  Because he should automatically assume that every helpless race about to get slaughtered are actually incredibly powerful space gods.

 

"Shame on you, Kirk, for not knowing the secret information that we refused to share with you.  You primitive unevolved monkey."

 

Space gods are snotty.

 

Pretty much, exactly how the episode comes across to me.

 

When in the end, the Organians said being around the human and Klingons as "painful".  I do wish to insert myself into the episode and say "Yeah, I feel the same way about YOU"

[Badger]

Rare star trek referance...A bunch of space hippies encounter the Enterprise, the groups founder got hassled by a pompous goofball named Herbert, thus all pompous fuddy duddies are "Herberts".

 

Of course, given the space hippie episode, I always think "Maybe Herbert had a point"

[Old Man]

Of course, given the space hippie episode, I always think "Maybe Herbert had a point"

 

Whatever you say, Herbert. 

[Badger]

I'll just take that as a compliment.......

 

Right after, I send the space hippies craft on a direct collision course upon the Ewok village.  MWA-HA-HA

 

Note:  I hope those damn Organians don't try to force me into a peace treaty with the Ewoks.  The evil pacifist b@$t@rds.

[Zeropoint]

 

Do 2 civilizations have the right to settle their differences as they see fit, for better or worse? 

 

That's a tough question. Most people would probably agree that the police have the right to prevent two individual people from settling their differences in a manner lethal for one of them and hazardous to everyone else in the area, like having a shootout at the mall.

 

The main difference seems to be that the police are a "duly constituted authority" with a recognized legal mandate to perform such enforcement, while the Organians are just stronger. Do I have the right to stop a pair of toddlers from hurting each other? Does my relationship to the kids matter? I don't know how good that analogy really is, but it seems to me that I'd be in the right to stop a couple of kids from hurting each other if I could do it without hurting them myself or otherwise restricting their actions.

[Badger]

Interesting take.  I do have some problem with the Organians anointing themselves the adult, with the Klingon/Federation as toddlers.  Does less advanced=not sufficiently advanced to choose their own path?

 

Starting to feel like I am going in circles on my point, heh.  Does make for an interesting discussion (more than the writers probably intended)

[DShomshak]

Space gods are snotty.

It's part of the job description for gods, space or otherwise.

 

At least the Organians weren't as obnoxious as the Metrons. After all, the Organians politely asked Kirk not to interfere. He interfered anyway, forcing the choice on the Organians: Reveal they were Space Gods, or let the Federation and Klingon Empire fight a big destructive war on false premises. They withheld information but they didn't lie. The Metrons, on the other hand, captured both the Enterprise and the Gorn ship it pursued, preached a bit about how superior they were, told Kirk and the Gorn captain to try killing each other, and only at the end -- when Kirk refused to kill the Gorn -- revealed that they'd lied through their teeth, they had intended to destroy the victor's ship. Followed by a bit more preaching.

 

Man, *that* was snotty.

 

I think the best Space God Encounter ST story actually came in Next Generation, when Picard found himself accidentally placed in the role of Space God. The Prime Directive already broken, he tried to fix the situation by convincing the primitives he wasn't a Space God, just a guy who happened to have somewhat greater knowledge and resources, unworthy of reverence.

 

Dean Shomshak