Unlimited Continuous Charges

[Christougher]

Help me out here, Herophiles,  I just posted the following to Rules Questions and got the listed answer. 

 

How does one create a power with the lasting effect of a Continuous Charge, but without a cap on the number of uses of the power?

 

Example: Force Wall Barrier 6 PD/6 ED Lasts 1 Minute.  Can be used as often as desired.

 

Does this require a different method if the power was normally Persistent?  such as Armor Resistant Defense Usable By Other, Lasts 1 Turn.

 

 

Steve Long said:

Use the Time Limit Power Modifier, which in the case of a Persistent Power would be a Limitation rather than Advantage.

 

 

 

Now, either there weren't any power examples for this advantage or I didn't understand them.  Can someone(s) post a power build for the two examples and explain how they work?  Because I'm clearly not understanding it.

 

Chris.

 

[DasBroot]

One Minute Barrier:  Barrier 6 PD/6 ED, 1 BODY (up to 3m long, 3m tall, and 1/2m thick) (26 Active Points); Time Limit (1 Minute; -2). RC 9

 

 

Resistant Protection (10 PD/10 ED), Usable By Other (+1/4) (37 Active Points); Time Limit (1 Minute; -2), RC: 12

 

How it works is like this: If you have a power that is normally of unlimited duration, even if it's an instant (such as entangle, barrier), or any persistent power or otherwise duration permanent power assigning a time limit is a disadvantage.  In the case of a time limit Resistant Protection of 1 hour, for example, the character would have to turn the power back on after an hour. Usually this isn't a problem (which is why I'm not a huge fan of it as a disadvantage as a GM) but if you were underwater and your air tank only had 1 hour of air it could be (this could be built as either life support with a time limit or life support with a continuous charge. The line blurs often between the two,)

 

Time limit as an advantage is.... weird.  It really only works on modified powers, as the example in Champions  Complete outlines.  Basically if you take something that makes a power hard to use (like extra time) and then  take time limit as an advantage it lets you skip that extra time restriction when reusing the power for the duration of the advantage.  So if you had an anime style massive chi-blast that took a whole turn of screaming to charge but you only had to repeat the last syllable of the scream  to repeat the blast after that for a turn you could build it with extra time (-1 1/4) and time limit (+1/2).

 

Example:

 

Yell Forrrrr Powerrrrrr - Haaaaa!:  Blast 40d6, Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/2) (300 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), RC: 109 .

 

Bishouman with a speed 6 starts screaming on Segment 12 as the fight starts.  The entire first full turn of the fight he screams "Yellllll ... forrrrrr ..... powwwerrrrrrr!" over the course of 12 segments. After the auto recovery of segment 12 (basically between segment 12 and segment 1) of the first full turn the blast goes off, obliterating a minion.  For the next turn (second full turn of the combat) all he has to do is yell "Haaa!" "Haaa!" "Haaaaa!" on his phases (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12) to repeat the blast.

 

If theres anything left besides a smoking crater by the third full turn he has to start again with a full turn "Yell for power".

[massey]

Right.  Basically, with a Power that is already Constant (like Barrier, Force Field, etc -- I might be mixing up my terms here because I still use 5th), the Power continues on by default.  You put up a Barrier, and it stays there forever.  So you don't need a Continuing Charge.  If you want a time limit, then it's just a limitation.

[DasBroot]

Though again - not much of one, in my opinion, especially on entangles and barriers.  They probably aren't going to last more than a minute in a fight anyways but slapping a -2 on it to make sure they *can't* saves a *lot* of points.

[Christougher]

I've read and reread the entry, and while individual parts make sense, I'm not grokking the whole of it.

 

Burn: RKA 1d6 AOE 8m(+1) Time Limit: 1 Minute(?)  (Do I need Constant?  Uncontrolled? How does the END cost factor in? Is it Persistent?)  Get even with the Druid and cast this fifty or a hundred times and burn down his forest.

 

Water Breathing: Life Support Breathe Water Usable By Others(+1)  Time Limit 1 Hour(+?  -?)  This way we can hide out from that druid at the bottom of the lake.

[DasBroot]

For the first one the time limit (as an advantage) just lets you repeat the attack every phase for an hour, if you'd like.  It's not Continuous (requires only one attack roll), nor is it Damage over Time.  It costs END every time you use it during that hour.

 

Really, it's just reusing the attack.  In the absence of other things that restrict how Burn is used (extra time, as my blast example above) it's a waste of points - mechanically no different than simply using the power every Phase. (Unless *I've* misread it, which is certainly possible.  As an advantage, like I said, it's 'weird'.)

 

For the second it's literally just this:

 

Life Support  (Expanded Breathing - Water), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (10 Active Points); Time Limit (1 Hour; -3/4), RC: 6

 

It's a disadvantage on the second power because normally Life Support is of undetermined duration - which can actually be a problem with Usable By Others if you don't take the 'grantor can take power back at any time' modifier (+1/4) - you'd cast the spell on up to 8 people and then, unless they get stunned or willing give the power up, be unable to use it ever again in the campaign. For that reason Time Limit, which is a limitation, on a UOO power can actually cheaply replicate as a disadvantage what is normally an ADVANTAGE on UOO in this situation (-3/4 instead of a +1/4 advantage).  That's not really cool in my books and if they wanted it as a disadvantage I'd make a player pay for the 'revoke' advantage as well (thus they could remove the spell when they wished or it runs out after an hour - whichever comes first).

[Christougher]

I think part of my understanding problem is how durations interact with multiple uses.  If lasting one hour is a limitation, and I can cast more than 12/24 in a day, shouldn't that be an advantage?

[DasBroot]

I think part of my understanding problem is how durations interact with multiple uses.  If lasting one hour is a limitation, and I can cast more than 12/24 in a day, shouldn't that be an advantage?

 

Not really - in the case of entangle or barrier, for example, you can throw up a thousand in a day, if you want, and they'll each last an hour.  Or, if you don't take the disadvantage, you can throw up a thousand and clutter up the game world forever (I had a player in my game use an unanchored barrier with Opaque to sight and variable size build himself a castle using it).

 

In the case of something like Resistant Protection - you turn it on once at the start of the campaign and, unless you get killed or it gets Dispelled, you're done.  No repeating every hour of your career to keep your protection up.

 

Like I said - in practically every situation I consider it what I classify a 'non-disadvantage' - that's a disadvantage that I, as a GM, would have to go out of my way to bring into play periodically.

 

In the case of an attack it's a worthless advantage unless it has preparations - you pay a LOT for the privilege of using the power exactly as you would have used it anyways at base cost.

[massey]

I think part of my understanding problem is how durations interact with multiple uses.  If lasting one hour is a limitation, and I can cast more than 12/24 in a day, shouldn't that be an advantage?

 

Okay, I'm not an expert on 6th edition, so I might get my terminology wrong.  But here's the way it works.

 

Life Support (and other constant powers) is always active.  You don't need to do anything to make it keep going.  It lasts forever, just by default.  An attack that has a permanent effect (like Entangle or Barrier) will stay there forever, until someone breaks it.  So if I put a Barrier defined as a brick wall on the ground over there somewhere, it's just like a real brick wall.  It stays until someone knocks it over (or until 100 years from now when it finally collapses from the weather and neglect).  I don't need an Advantage to do this.  The Power does it as part of its normal effects.  No Continuous Advantage is required, I don't need to buy up how long it lasts.  It's permanent because that's how the baseline power works.

 

Some Powers, like Energy Blast, are not permanent in the same way.  I shoot my Energy Blast, I pay my Endurance, it works once, and then it's over.  If I want an attack that just keeps going and going, I have to buy it Continuous.  Once I buy it Continuous, I have to keep paying Endurance, but it keeps working every Phase.  But once I buy it Zero End, and Continuous, and Persistent (so it works when I sleep) then it's just going to keep running forever.  It will affect the target, every phase, until the GM finally says "no no no, that's enough, there's gotta be a way to stop this thing".

 

You can put a limitation on these powers that restricts them to a certain time duration.  Because by default (once you've stacked on the right advantages in some cases), they basically run forever.  So limiting it to an hour, or a minute, or a turn, is certainly less powerful than a power that works for eons.  You don't need an additional Advantage, because you've already paid for it to work that way.

[Christougher]

Okay, those explanations make sense.  I think I need a couple more examples though, covering points that weren't earlier...and why I didn't lead with them I'll never know...

 

Light: Images to Sight, Time Limit 1 Hour(+?)

 

Silence: Darkness to Hearing, Time Limit 5 Minutes(+?)  

 

I know I can do both of those with Continuous Charges.  But then I have a limited number of castings - the problem I want to avoid.

[L. Marcus]

If you want to avoid that, make the Continuous Charges Recoverable. Buy half a dozen Charges (or some such) -- that ought to cover one fight pretty well, and afterwards you have them all back again.

[DasBroot]

If you want to avoid that, make the Continuous Charges Recoverable. Buy half a dozen Charges (or some such) -- that ought to cover one fight pretty well, and afterwards you have them all back again.

 

Definitely the simplest solution. I love recoverable  charges for what D&D 4E would call 'encounter powers' (and regular charges for 'daily powers').

 

Okay, those explanations make sense.  I think I need a couple more examples though, covering points that weren't earlier...and why I didn't lead with them I'll never know...

 

Light: Images to Sight, Time Limit 1 Hour(+?)

 

Silence: Darkness to Hearing, Time Limit 5 Minutes(+?)  

 

I know I can do both of those with Continuous Charges.  But then I have a limited number of castings - the problem I want to avoid.

 

First thing to do, since those are Continuous powers, is buy them to 0 END (+1/2),  Then, according to the chart, the Light is a +1 1/4 advantage and the Silence is a +3/4 advantage.

 

That would let them start and stop the power for the duration of those minutes without having to do any preparations (extra time, gestures, incantations). It doesn't actually limit the effect's duration time (which is what I think you're looking for) - that's not what time limit as an advantage does for continuous powers. I think you really are looking for Continuous Charges (Recoverable).

 

(Great catch by L. Marcus)

[L. Marcus]

You don't have to buy 0 END -- that's already covered by Charges.

[DasBroot]

You don't have to buy 0 END -- that's already covered by Charges.

 

No, but you do if you want to apply time limit to "Light" and "Silence".  Though like I said - it doesn't do what the OP thinks it does and your continuous charges (recoverable) does.

[L. Marcus]

Oh, yeah.