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Part 3 of 3

Yet they're all ployglots too?
 
[shrug] Frankly I'd be fine with "It's magic" as an explanation. It just seemed like their knowledge of the outside world was weirdly plot-specific? [shrug] Like I said, minor nitpicking.

 
Depends, I can make an argument each way. This is an argument against the Amazons having polyglot. 
 
What we know:

  • We see one book, that Queen Hippolyta reads to young Diana. 
  • Diana mentioned reading 12 volumes of Cleo's Body and Pleasure. 
  • We do not see a library or theatre or any other things associated with high culture. 
  • We see young Diana watching the Amazons training as she skipped something (forget which), we can assume that training is the epitome of Amazon culture and what young Diana dreams of joining. 
  • ​The Amazons talk that Diana is special amongst the Amazons due to her origin (i.e. a demigoddess) and it is kept as a secret from her. IIRC, she is the only child on Themyscira. 
  • Diana is the only Amazon to she the speak and understand a wide variety of languages.

Appling the simplest explanation we can state that the language in the book(s) and spoken by the Amazons is ancient Greek (or Ancient Ancient Greek if you prefer). I use ancient Greek as a nod to the Amazon's Greek origins. 

So from this we can state that by an large the Amazon's are not polyglot. An explanation for the Amazons understanding Steve can be a power of Lasso of Truth (probably not, as not in the comics, but..can explain things). 

So what about Diana herself? What makes her special. With a liberal quotes from this article:
 

Her powers emerge to help make it possible, leaving Diana dangling from the tower basking in her (momentary) victory. The full extent of her powers is soon demonstrated as she finds herself in need of some improvised handholds, but what makes Diana different from most superheroes has already been glimpsed: her will, determination, and call to action has caused her superpowers to emerge – not the other way around. The audience may know that Diana possesses the powers of an Olympian god or demigod, but she doesn’t.


But Diana felt the call to heroism and self-sacrifice for her people before receiving any blessings, as far as she knew.

 

Where so many origin stories tell of people who ‘got superpowers, and became a hero,’ Diana is among the elite company who proved themselves to be heroes – who then ‘got superpowers.’

 

Diana’s power simply showing up to allow her to continue her mission soon becomes a trademark...But it was Diana’s agency in pushing her way through...that afforded the opportunity

 

And where that first scene leaping towards the tower was truly a leap of faith, her superhero career is anything but. Diana’s powers make her extraordinary and, seemingly, unstoppable… but it’s her decision and commitment to act that brings them all out to begin with.

 

As the above makes clear, Diana's superpowers come about by an act of doing. She has the power, but action brings it about. Hence Diana is a polyglot because she decides to act as though she is, and has the need for it. Diana has the power, action brings it forth, i.e. actualises it. 

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Queen Hippolyta: “I used to want to save the world, this beautiful place. But the closer you get, the more you see the great darkness within. I learnt this the hard way, a long, long time ago.”

 

I'm 99% certain that that voice-over is Diana/Gal Gadot, musing in the present day on those events from her youth. She completes those thoughts at the end of the movie, with her assertion that she can't save the world herself, but love can.

 

The cause of the Amazons' withdrawal from the world was briefly alluded to in the opening animated-painting sequence, although it could have been depicted more explicitly. They were created to help foster understanding among Mankind, but men fought and enslaved them (which is the standard history of the comic-book Amazons). After they overcame their oppressors, the gods then hid the Amazons from the rest of the human race on Themiscyra, suggesting that the gods themselves considered them a failed experiment. The Amazons' experience has led them to believe the human race isn't worth saving, but Diana didn't share that experience and retained idealism.

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Those two quote explain so much about the attitudes of the Amazons and Diana. Diana still believed in the Amazon’s mission and Queen Hippolyta became disillusioned.

I get that, but it still felt rather like a rather forced "purpose fail" to use your/your friend's phrase.

 

The Germans attacked the island. The Amazons defended their home. They saw one of their sisters being killed. Wounding or capturing wasn't going to happen. Also what the Amazons did was just as it is self defence. 

 

What I didn't like about that scene was the disjoined feel of it in the beginning. From the Germans breaking through the veil, to them being in boats, to having arrows hitting them, to then being on the shore. And German reinforcements. All in a matter of moments. The Amazons, and Steve & Diana had no time to prepare much of a defence -- they should have had plenty of time. The set piece and fighting were all well done, don't get me wrong. But it annoys me that the Amazons were left "flat footed". 

Oh I agree it was war/self-defense, and I wasn't actually criticizing for it. Just pointing out that Diana's preference for avoiding killing doesn't seem to be something she shares with her sisters. There's not so much as a "Should we keep one alive for questioning?" (Of course none of the Germans tried to surrender even when it was obvious they had lost because Hollywood.)

 

I do agree the invasion scene while visually awesome, felt a bit disjointed even assuming the typical Hollywood time compression. (And was I the only one thinking: wait, what happened to that German destroyer afterwards?")

 

Appling the simplest explanation we can state that the language in the book(s) and spoken by the Amazons is ancient Greek (or Ancient Ancient Greek if you prefer). I use ancient Greek as a nod to the Amazon's Greek origins. 

 

So from this we can state that by an large the Amazon's are not polyglot. An explanation for the Amazons understanding Steve can be a power of Lasso of Truth (probably not, as not in the comics, but..can explain things). 

Well the first time they talk with Trevor on the beach he's not bound by the lasso, but they all seem to understand him perfectly. And I could swear Diana said "We speak many languages" but I can't swear to it. She certainly didn't seem to act like it was any big thing - at that point, she seemed to believe she was "just" an Amazon.

 

Honestly, it's not something that bugged me, and it certainly didn't come close to ruining the movie for me. Just interesting.

 

Patty Jenkins revealed her nickname at school was Wonder Woman. But she got it sarcastically. 

Speaking of which, I did find it odd that AFAICT no one actually called her Wonder Woman or referred to her that way? Not necessarily Bad odd, just... interesting again.

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In a movie that sucks, or has lots of flaws, that kind of thing annoys me.  In a movie that's otherwise good, I can let it slide.

Like I said, the language thing wasn't a big deal to me. But it did feel like there were an awful lot of "logical incongruities" even by comic book movie standards, which for me kept it from being a truly great film. Any one of them could've slid by, but they kept piling up and pulling me out of the film. YMMV, and like I say I still enjoyed it; I just thought it could've been Even Better with 10 minutes of script-doctoring.

 

The cause of the Amazons' withdrawal from the world was briefly alluded to in the opening animated-painting sequence, although it could have been depicted more explicitly. They were created to help foster understanding among Mankind, but men fought and enslaved them (which is the standard history of the comic-book Amazons). After they overcame their oppressors, the gods then hid the Amazons from the rest of the human race on Themiscyra, suggesting that the gods themselves considered them a failed experiment. The Amazons' experience has led them to believe the human race isn't worth saving, but Diana didn't share that experience and retained idealism.

I thought they said Zeus hid them on Themyscira to keep them safe so they would be ready to defend the world when Ares returned. Yet they had no way of monitoring the outside world to know if/when Ares had returned, nor did they seem to express the least interest in the notion. And it wasn't just Hippolyta; no one other than Diana seemed even remotely curious to find out if this Big War Against War they've been training for literally every day for two millennia might actually be neigh? In the comics, Hippolyta was usually portrayed as "OK, I realize we need to send someone to Man's World; I just don't want it to be my daughter." Moving her beyond protective mother to cowardly "purpose fail" was one of my chief complaints about the script.

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But it did feel like there were an awful lot of "logical incongruities" even by comic book movie standards, which for me kept it from being a truly great film. Any one of them could've slid by, but they kept piling up and pulling me out of the film.

 

 

I'll see some day when I catch it, that kind of thing does tend to annoy me and pull me out of a story, too.

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I just figure its because "otherwise she'd have a terrible time functioning in the world taking months to learn how to talk to anyone" movie logic.

Not to mention taking months before Steve and the Amazons can communicate when they have hours before the Germans land...

 

I thought they said Zeus hid them on Themyscira to keep them safe so they would be ready to defend the world when Ares returned. Yet they had no way of monitoring the outside world to know if/when Ares had returned, nor did they seem to express the least interest in the notion. And it wasn't just Hippolyta; no one other than Diana seemed even remotely curious to find out if this Big War Against War they've been training for literally every day for two millennia might actually be neigh? In the comics, Hippolyta was usually portrayed as "OK, I realize we need to send someone to Man's World; I just don't want it to be my daughter." Moving her beyond protective mother to cowardly "purpose fail" was one of my chief complaints about the script.

The Amazons seemed quite aware that Diana had not been carved from clay, but was the daughter of Zeus and the real Godkiller weapon. Hippoltya does not WANT to know Ares has returned, as that means losing her daughter, originally only conceived (no pun intended) as a weapon. None of the other Amazons would be fighting against Ares - only Diana can beat him - she's the only one on the island that does not know this (at least until Steve arrives). Unlike the classic origin, Hippolyta knows it can't be any other Amazon - so do all of the other Amazons.

 

One question that was not addressed (no failing, really is "how old is Diana?" The Amazons are immortal, so she does not have to be in her '20s now any more than she is 100 years later in SvB. As Zeus' daughter, she had to be conceived before Zeus died - how long ago was that? He hasn't been opposing Ares since pre-history. Did she have 20 years of training? 200 years? 2,000 years? Probably, she grew to adulthood in more or less normal time, but after that? We don't know. And we don't know how long the Amazons have had to start considering Diana as "daughter of the Amazons" rather than "weapon to slay Ares". Or how long they had to evolve from "The God-Killer's Army" to "we keep training because we do it so long we know no other way" isolationists.

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The Amazons seemed quite aware that Diana had not been carved from clay, but was the daughter of Zeus and the real Godkiller weapon. Hippoltya does not WANT to know Ares has returned, as that means losing her daughter, originally only conceived (no pun intended) as a weapon. None of the other Amazons would be fighting against Ares - only Diana can beat him - she's the only one on the island that does not know this (at least until Steve arrives). Unlike the classic origin, Hippolyta knows it can't be any other Amazon - so do all of the other Amazons.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I thought the story was that Zeus had charged the Amazons collectively with opposing Ares, and gave them the Godkiller "weapon" to aid them in doing so. IOW the Amazons fight Ares' army so Godkiller Diana can take out the Boss. Not that they were just supposed to prepare Diana and then stand on the sidelines while she fights alone? That doesn't even make sense from an Overprotective Mama standpoint: if your daughter is determined to go out and fight the Big Bad, and you recognize you can't stop her, you could at least send some backup...

 

One question that was not addressed (no failing, really is "how old is Diana?"

Yeah, that bugged me too. I wasn't thrilled when Azzarello made her Zeus' daughter in the comics, but at least there Zeus is still alive so it happened recently. The impression I got from the movie was that Zeus had died during classical antiquity, shortly after gathering all the Amazons to Themyscira. Which means Diana should've been conceived shortly thereafter, making her only younger than her siblings by a couple of decades? Confused timeline is confusing.

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Turns out guys like strong female lead movies, as long as they don't suck.  Imagine that.

 

Some guys.  Man of Steel made $116 M domestically in its opening weekend compared to Wonder Woman's $103 M.  So despite not getting as good of reviews MoS sold more tickets.  Had MoS been getting the sort of reviews that WW been receiving it probably would have made $140+ M, because yes quality does matter.

 

Now, breaking it down by sex, men made up 60% of the audience for MoS and only 48% of the audience for WW.  So, doing the math, American men accounted for $70 M of MoS opening weekend box office and only  $49 M of WW.  Flipping it, American Women made up $46 M of MoS openind weekend and $54 M of WW opening weekend.  So, despite being a first of its kind event movie for the female sex, there was only a $8 M dollar difference between women's tickets for the two movies.  However, men's tickets dropped by a whopping $21 M from MoS to WW, and this is despite WW widely being regarded as the a better film.

 

So, while a majority of men are willing to watch "strong female lead movies, as long as they don't suck", there does seem to be a distressingly large minority that are still worried about getting girl cooties or something.  Now,  WW is going to make money anyway, but don't think producers of riskier projects won't be looking at these figures while deciding whether or not to back projects with female protagonists.

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I think WW will be a movie that lasts, as opposed to MoS. People like my wife are waiting to see if it is good and what their friends say. My wife and i will see it this way, but she had no interest, based on DC track record, to see it opening weekend.

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So, while a majority of men are willing to watch "strong female lead movies, as long as they don't suck", there does seem to be a distressingly large minority that are still worried about getting girl cooties or something.

 

 

Meh, women aren't fond of manly blow 'em up man movies, there's nothing shocking or disturbing about that.  I think an assumption that every man must like every movie that has a strong female lead or something horrendous is going on is flawed at best.

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So meh, I'm willing to give them that one. I'm more curious how they learned how to read/speak so many modern languages so perfectly if they've had no contact with Man's World in 2000 years?

I assumed that boat meant that they had occasionally sent Amazons out into Man's World, perhaps stealthily, bringing back info and new languages. I mean, Diana seemed familiar with concepts like spies and smuggling, things that the Amazons wouldn't have any need for on Themyscira.

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I assumed that boat meant that they had occasionally sent Amazons out into Man's World, perhaps stealthily, bringing back info and new languages.

And I'd be willing to buy that...except then they established the whole "If you leave, you can never return" rule.

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I agree with LL. I took it more as a "you'll probably die" which is why Hippolyta said Diana was her greatest love, now sorrow" paraphrasing.

 

After the Irish Potato Famine, many made the trip to America for a new chance at life. For those relatives who stayed in Ireland it was though they died, figurately maybe, but the chance they would likely see each other again was practically nil. So it was treated like they died. That is how I took the Queen's meaning--like she would almost positively never see Diana again. For all intents: Diana was "dead to her"; thus her greatest sorrow.

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Diana is clearly comfortable enough with contemporary society to assume that she spends time in it, but we don't know yet if she's been living in Man's World continuously since the War, or going back and forth from Themiscyra. Given the way her movie ends, I wouldn't be surprised if she's been helping innocent people all these years, just not publicly in her costumed persona.

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First DC movie I've seen in the theater in a long time. My wife was annoyed by the platform leg armor, but a strong showing none-the-less.

 

(I thought they did a pretty good job hiding heels myself...)

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You guys think too much.  I just likes da purdy pictures.

 

I finally saw it and enjoyed it a great deal.  I think I still like Gaurdians 2 and Logan a little better but then that might be my Marvel fanboyism showing a bit (I barely read any DC as a kid and very little now).

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I saw it in one of my rare Theater movies.

 

It was good.  Being a DC movie I am actually a little shocked that they let Wonder Woman be Wonder Woman and not try and "fix it" or "make it more relevant" or any of the other ways they jack up movies these days.

 

It was a good solid supers movie featuring one of the iconic supers. 

 

DC, pay attention.  A classic is a classic for a reason, stop "fixing" or "reinterpreting" things.

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I'm curious how people who didn't like Superman killing Zod by breaking his neck feel about Wonder Woman plunging a sword into a guy who turned out not to be Ares. It seems the same to me, the only difference is the overall tone of the movie.

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