Wonder Woman

[Spence]

I'm curious how people who didn't like Superman killing Zod by breaking his neck feel about Wonder Woman plunging a sword into a guy who turned out not to be Ares. It seems the same to me, the only difference is the overall tone of the movie.

 

 

Wonder Woman doesn't have the same CvK in the comics and hasn't for a long time. Very different in that the comic portrayal of Wonder Woman kills.

 

The iconic Wonder Woman was always willing and able to kill an enemy in battle.  She was an honorable warrior that understood death occurs. 

 

The iconic Superman never willingly killed no matter what.  He was in invulnerable being whose moral and ethical compass was rigidly adhered to. 

 

You can't compare the two. 

 

Wonder Woman's movie was right on point for her origin and how she behaved. The writer and director actually seemed to have read the source material.

 

The more recent Superman movies had him have a child out of wedlock and kill a helpless foe.  The writer and director obviously never read the source material or their own understanding of the moral and ethical code that defines the iconic Superman was nonexistent.

[Twilight]

Exactly how was Zod "helpless" in that scene? He was restrained by Superman yes but that was far from a permanent situation and given that Zod was the superior fighter between the two, he'd likely have freed himself.  He wasn't stripped of his powers or anything and was getting stronger as he absorbed solar energy.  There was no prison that could hold Zod and he'd flat out said he was going to wipe out humanity, not killing him would have been incredibly unethical as it would risk the lives of thousands at the very least.  Plus, killing Zod's crew has been something Superman has done in the comics to keep them from wreaking havoc and destruction.

[Twilight]

Wonder Woman doesn't have the same CvK in the comics and hasn't for a long time. Very different in that the comic portrayal of Wonder Woman kills.

Actually for the longest time she did have that, as is quite appropriate for a person who's mission is supposed to be one of peace.

[Old Man]

This movie did not suck.

[Nolgroth]

I liked it a lot. In the straight up comparison between it and Captain America: The First Avenger, I would easily call it a tie. I loved CA:TFA, so that is about as high praise as I can give it. For once, I didn't mind that Chris Pine was taking up screen real estate. He actually did a good job, as opposed to his portrayals of James T. Kirk or Jack Ryan. I'd like to see a little more of his acting chops outside of major franchises. Perhaps the roles intimidate him so he has to come off with that arrogance in order to compensate. Who knows.

 

I am up for watching any sequels.

[Iuz the Evil]

http://www.cbr.com/lorendiacs-timeline-of-wonder-womans-killings-post-crisis/

[Hugh Neilson]

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I thought the story was that Zeus had charged the Amazons collectively with opposing Ares, and gave them the Godkiller "weapon" to aid them in doing so. IOW the Amazons fight Ares' army so Godkiller Diana can take out the Boss. Not that they were just supposed to prepare Diana and then stand on the sidelines while she fights alone? That doesn't even make sense from an Overprotective Mama standpoint: if your daughter is determined to go out and fight the Big Bad, and you recognize you can't stop her, you could at least send some backup...

Again, the Amazons were not too forthcoming to Diana, so who knows? Diana was the only one remotely interested in the Amazons' supposed mission, whether because it was hers alone or because the others' commitment had faded.

 

Yeah, that bugged me too. I wasn't thrilled when Azzarello made her Zeus' daughter in the comics, but at least there Zeus is still alive so it happened recently. The impression I got from the movie was that Zeus had died during classical antiquity, shortly after gathering all the Amazons to Themyscira. Which means Diana should've been conceived shortly thereafter, making her only younger than her siblings by a couple of decades? Confused timeline is confusing.

I question it, but it did not make or break the movie to have either interpretation, nor to be silent about the timeline.

 

Wasn't it supposed to be Zeus who brought the clay statue to life anyway? Once the Gods are gone, neither origin happens (unless you think Ares was so moved by the Amazons that he brought the statue to life).

[Greywind]

Wonder Woman's origin story relates that she was sculpted from clay by her mother Queen Hippolyta and given life by Aphrodite, along with superhuman powers as gifts by the Greek Gods. However, in recent years artists updated her profile: she has been depicted as the daughter of Zeus, and jointly raised by her mother Hippolyta and her aunts Antiope and Menalippe; artist George Perez gave her a muscular look and emphasized her Amazonian heritage; artist Jim Lee redesigned Diana's costume to include pants; she inherits Ares's divine abilities, becoming the personified "God of War"; and writer Greg Rucka clarified her sexual orientation as bisexual,^[8] giving her a backstory that includes positive relationships with women.^[9][10][11]

[Lord Liaden]

For once, I didn't mind that Chris Pine was taking up screen real estate. He actually did a good job, as opposed to his portrayals of James T. Kirk or Jack Ryan. I'd like to see a little more of his acting chops outside of major franchises. Perhaps the roles intimidate him so he has to come off with that arrogance in order to compensate. Who knows.

 

Have you seen Hell or High Water? If not -- and if you saw and liked the recent Logan, I think you would like this -- Chris Pine turns in a deep and compelling performance in that movie..

[Christopher R Taylor]

I thought Perez' run on the series was the best interpretation and concept of the character.  It was the only one that actually made me actually like and be interested in Wonder Woman.

[bigdamnhero]

I'm curious how people who didn't like Superman killing Zod by breaking his neck feel about Wonder Woman plunging a sword into a guy who turned out not to be Ares. It seems the same to me, the only difference is the overall tone of the movie.

Personally Broodingmanbaby killing Zod didn't bother me nearly as much as his complete indifference to the thousands of other lives that were lost in the preceding hour of destruction porn. Honestly, I thought it was in character for Broodingmanbaby to kill Zod in what came off as a fit of frustration, because Broodingmanbaby hadn't really been shown to care much about human lives up to that point. But then I stopped thinking of MoS as a Superman movie when Pa Kent told him he should've let a bus full of kids die to protect his secret.

 

I even think you could've made an actual Superman movie where Supes realizes "Hundreds of innocent people are dying right now in the rubble; if I kill this one already-convicted multiple murderer, I can go save those people," makes that hard choice and then lives with the consequences. It would be a huge character moment. But you would first have to establish his character.

 

Diana thought that by killing (not-)Ares that she would be ending not just that war but all war itself, turning the entire world into the kind of peaceful utopian paradise she grew up in. I thought it was entirely in character for her.

 

The iconic Wonder Woman was always willing and able to kill an enemy in battle.  She was an honorable warrior that understood death occurs.

Hmm...I can't think of any pre-Perez examples of WW intentionally killing anyone? In fact even during Perez' run I think she only killed supernatural creatures - Decay & Deimos for example - not humans. I can't think of any humans she killed prior to the last 20 years or so. So I agree the film's portrayal of WW is much closer to recent comic's portrayal of the character. And FWIW I happen to prefer the more recent version as it gives her more of her own unique personality. But I guess it depends what we mean by "iconic."

 

Perhaps the roles intimidate him so he has to come off with that arrogance in order to compensate.

Pine was playing James T. Kirk, William "the Hamasaurus"* Shatner himself, and people complain that he portrayed him as arrogant. "Didn't you guys ever watch the show?!"

 

* Shatner actually calls himself that in his autobiography.

 

I question it, but it did not make or break the movie to have either interpretation, nor to be silent about the timeline.

 

Wasn't it supposed to be Zeus who brought the clay statue to life anyway? Once the Gods are gone, neither origin happens (unless you think Ares was so moved by the Amazons that he brought the statue to life).

Good point that neither story really works with their timeline. And it didn't break the movie for me either; any of these nitpicks individually wouldn't have bugged me. But it just seemed like there were so many little things that didn't make sense that collectively they kept distracting me. I still enjoyed it, give it a solid B (which is off the scale by Snyderverse standards), but they kept me from giving it an A.

[Greywind]

The major difference for me in Superman portrayals:

 

Superman II - he runs from the battle, appearing as a coward to all to get the fight out of the city and thereby saving countless lives.

 

Man of Steel - he couldn't give a rat's ass about the wanton destruction of the majority of Metropolis.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm curious how people who didn't like Superman killing Zod by breaking his neck feel about Wonder Woman plunging a sword into a guy who turned out not to be Ares

 

 

Superman and Wonder Woman are completely different characters with different personalities.  That's like saying "why do people get so upset at Winnie the Pooh mauling someone and don't care about John MaClane in Die Hard shooting all those people, huh?  huh?

 

people complain that he portrayed him as arrogant. "Didn't you guys ever watch the show?!"

 

 

He played him as arrogant without charm or justification.  Kirk had reason to be cocky, this punk kid has none.

 

Man of Steel - he couldn't give a rat's ass about the wanton destruction of the majority of Metropolis.

 

 

Or Smallville for that matter.  I get that having him crash a villain into the gas station for a huge explosion looks great on screen but really?

[Nolgroth]

The major difference for me in Superman portrayals:

 

Superman II - he runs from the battle, appearing as a coward to all to get the fight out of the city and thereby saving countless lives.

 

Man of Steel - he couldn't give a rat's ass about the wanton destruction of the majority of Metropolis.

 

Superman II - Story and Character driven.

 

Man of Steel - CGI effects driven.

[Iuz the Evil]

Hmm...I can't think of any pre-Perez examples of WW intentionally killing anyone? In fact even during Perez' run I think she only killed supernatural creatures - Decay & Deimos for example - not humans. I can't think of any humans she killed prior to the last 20 years or so. So I agree the film's portrayal of WW is much closer to recent comic's portrayal of the character. And FWIW I happen to prefer the more recent version as it gives her more of her own unique personality. But I guess it depends what we mean by "iconic."

 

The "comprehensive list of everyone killed by Wonder Women post crisis" I posted up thread supports that Perez likely initiated Diana's willingness to kill. That was in 1987, btw. So for the past 30 years or so, she's had a lower bar on her CvK than Superman or Batman. Maybe ego check level vs total? More likely depends on the writer, but I've read enough of her comics in the subsequent timeframe it no longer surprises me.

[Old Man]

Have you seen Hell or High Water? If not -- and if you saw and liked the recent Logan, I think you would like this -- Chris Pine turns in a deep and compelling performance in that movie..

 

Pine's a good actor, it's just that he usually plays Chris Pine.  He's not a chameleon like Karl Urban.  Still, there are clear differences in Pine's portrayal of Kirk vs. Pine's portrayal of Steve Trevor vs. Pine's portrayal of Jack Frost.

[Pattern Ghost]

I never got the Chris Pine hate. He's not my favorite, but he's never ruined anything for me either. I'll throw Z for Zachariah onto the list, just because. It seems to be an indie film, starring him, Margot Robbie ( ) and Chiwetel Ejiofor. Post-apocalyptic love triangle movie.

[Grailknight]

The major difference for me in Superman portrayals:

 

Superman II - he runs from the battle, appearing as a coward to all to get the fight out of the city and thereby saving countless lives.

 

Man of Steel - he couldn't give a rat's ass about the wanton destruction of the majority of Metropolis.

 

While noting can excuse the the lack of joy and hope in any scene that doesn't have Lois, I'll give MoS a pass on the action scenes.

 

1)  Clark is under terrible emotional distress. He just found out about his heritage after an isolated childhood and suddenly his people show up and turn out to be asshats who want to commit genocide on everyone he knows.

 

2)  He is not yet an established hero and not yet sure he wants to be one. He does good deeds if he is on the spot  but doesn't seek out emergencies.

 

3)  These are the very first fights he's been in in his life and he's up against career military elites. The only advantage he has is that he has more experience with his powers.

 

4)  In S2 the villains were there to kill him, he was able to control the location of the fight as he was the objective. In MoS, the villains were after his spaceship and so were searching the Smallville area for the first fight and in the second Zod's objective was to kill as many people as he could to make him suffer so Zod choose the battleground.

 

Still, it would have been a much better film if they had a scene after he kisses Lois where he says, "I have to go, I have to rescue these people" before the drone scene with the general.

[zslane]

I finally saw the movie and loved it, as I expected I would. I am quite smitten with Gadot's portrayal. I loved it in BvS and I loved it even more in this movie. Her naïve insistence on charging out across No Man's Land was almost heartbreaking, and also electrifying to watch in its execution. I loved that they didn't hold back on her superstrength, her fighting prowess, or her unwavering commitment and courage.

 

As for her code-vs-killing, Diana thought she was killing Ares when she killed Ludendorff. In effect, he was an accidental casualty. Did she show any particular remorse for it after she realized he was not Ares? Not that I could discern. But she was quickly caught up in her epic battle with the actual Ares, and didn't really have time to reflect on all the evening's events, probably until much later (and after mourning Steve Trevor). Then again, I doubt she shed any tears over killing the man in charge of the massacre at Veld.

 

I liked that the ending of this film explained her pursuit of that old photograph (in BvS) as a quest to acquire the only other artifact of her time with Trevor, rather than as a quest to keep her existence a secret (which was my interpretation previously).

 

I am left with an intense curiosity about how much Snyder and crew knew about WW's overall (DCEU) character arc when they put her into BvS. Did they know then that they were going to be telling her origin story soon afterwards, and that the version we were to see (fighting Doomsday) had to be the experienced badass that emerges after her battle with Ares in her own film? In BvS she actually says that she's killed beings from other worlds before, which would suggest they already knew what the WW screenplay contained.

[slikmar]

I will spoiler this in case people haven't seen movie:

 

 

One other point I would make on Luddendorf, he took something that Doctor Poison gave him that made him super strong and fast, so you could see her thinking she was fighting Ares.

I actually wanted either Doctor Poison herself to be Ares, or she somehow had him as a prisoner who gave her the "essence" that made Luddendorf so strong.

When the actual British guy helps Steve and his team to go after Luddendorf, I turned to my friend and said "I am glad he isn't Ares, because that's what Hollywood does". I wish it had remained so. It would be nice if someone in charge of the "right side" didn't always turn out to be the villain. Was my only real pet peeve.  

 

 

[Ranxerox]

I think WW will be a movie that lasts, as opposed to MoS. People like my wife are waiting to see if it is good and what their friends say. My wife and i will see it this way, but she had no interest, based on DC track record, to see it opening weekend.

 

Well, it looks like you are right.

 

Second Weekend Ticket Sales Drop Only 43 Percent

[zslane]

One question that was not addressed (no failing, really is "how old is Diana?"

 

According to Patty Jenkins, by the time of WWI, adult Diana is around 800 years old.

[Lord Liaden]

Wow. Where did you get that information from? It didn't feel like that long in the Themiscyra sequences. Diana still acted like she was trying to prove herself to her elders.

[bigdamnhero]

[Pine] played [Kirk] as arrogant without charm or justification.  Kirk had reason to be cocky, this punk kid has none.

Fair point.

 

I am left with an intense curiosity about how much Snyder and crew knew about WW's overall (DCEU) character arc when they put her into BvS. Did they know then that they were going to be telling her origin story soon afterwards, and that the version we were to see (fighting Doomsday) had to be the experienced badass that emerges after her battle with Ares in her own film? In BvS she actually says that she has experience fighting monsters like that, which would suggest they already knew what the WW screenplay contained.

Interesting question. The WW movie had at least been announced and I would expect they at least had a story outline by the time they got to shooting BvS. In fact now that I think about it, they must've had casting complete for WW in time to film "the photograph" that shows up in BvS. So odds are they had a decent idea where they were planning to go.

[Lord Liaden]

I did hear an interview with Chris Pine in which he said the scene where the photo was taken was one of the first ones they shot, because it had to be ready for BvS to add in post-production.