Wonder Woman

[Lord Liaden]

I know that final fight has been drawing a lot of criticism for being too CGI, and some have suggested the studio forced that on Jenkins. Having seen the movie three times now, I've come to believe it was rather necessary to go that route. Diana had been fighting in a grittier, more grounded fashion for most of the movie, which was well suited to the human opponents she faced. But we saw that by BvS she'd achieved full god mode, able to battle Kryptonians on an even footing. To show her realization of her full power in her battle with Ares, they had to step up the effects to high-superhuman level.

[bigdamnhero]

I know that final fight has been drawing a lot of criticism for being too CGI, and some have suggested the studio forced that on Jenkins. Having seen the movie three times now, I've come to believe it was rather necessary to go that route. Diana had been fighting in a grittier, more grounded fashion for most of the movie, which was well suited to the human opponents she faced. But we saw that by BvS she'd achieved full god mode, able to battle Kryptonians on an even footing. To show her realization of her full power in her battle with Ares, they had to step up the effects to high-superhuman level.

I would agree with this generally. I just think it could've been handled better.

[slikmar]

I actually would have liked them to have the battle with Ares and have him leave to lick his wounds - again. Then he can reappear 25 years later as she aids against the Nazi's (sequel?) and discovers he is still alive, but being more subtle now, having learned.

[Lord Liaden]

It would be nice to have a villain of Ares' magnitude recurring in future continuity; but with Diana being so focused on killing him through the whole movie, IMO it would have been anticlimactic had he been seen to escape. Such things are more important to movies than comics, where audiences prefer a definitive conclusion to a self-contained story, as opposed to comics' ongoing monthly narrative.

 

Still, we're talking about a mythic god in a comic-book universe. Someone wants to bring him back for a future movie, there are plenty of ways to justify it.

[slikmar]

Maybe it was Strife who influenced Hitler for WWII.

[Joe Walsh]

Wonder Woman 2 will arrive in theaters on December 13, 2019.

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/wonder-woman-2-release-date-1202506799/

[Michael Hopcroft]

Finally saw the movie in the most comfortable seat I've ever had in a movie theater (leatherette semi-recliner -- it didn't actually recline, but it did have a movable footrest that let me have my legs up for the entire film). Haven't quite made up my mind on it.

 

They could have handled Ares in a more nuanced way. The Greeks view war as an elemental force in the universe, but not necessarily an inherently evil one. It was, after all, the culture that created the Spartans and the Macedonians. They viewed war as a creative force as well as a destructive one. In the movie, though, Ares is reduced to a being (and war to a force) that is all-evil, all-the-time. And when he finally appears, he's portrayed as that force very well. But I would have preferred, as I mentioned, something more nuanced. I would like to have heard Trevor give Diana (is she ever referred to in-universe as Wonder Woman?) an explanation of how good people justify going to war, or an example of the wars that had been fought for just causes or accomplished overall good outcomes.

 

Diana's journey is out of naivete into a realization that her moral universe is more complicated than she could ever have imagined possible -- and that it being complex is not a bad thing. Men are not angels, nor are they devils. Men are men.

[zslane]

I think nuance was thrown out the window when DC decided that in the ancient past of the DCEU, Ares sought to wipe out all of humanity. As eternal personal missions go, genocide pretty much puts him in the all evil, all the time camp.

 

As for war getting a bad rap in the DCEU, well when you think about it, prior to WWII, it is difficult to find many large-scale wars that were initiated and/or fought for what Diana would consider a just cause (I am, of course, assuming that conquest and empire-building would not qualify as just causes, despite the demi-god status of figures like Alexander the Great in the eyes of the ancient Greeks). I just don't think Trevor would have gotten very far with that rhetorical approach.

[Lord Liaden]

I see your points, Michael, but some of what you say I viewed as positives for the movie.

 

One major issue is that the Amazons are not Greeks. They weren't in mythology, being a culture the Greeks viewed as unnatural, like centaurs and other fantastical beings; while in the DC Comics continuity, and this movie, they were described as having been created by the gods to help lead men away from their destructive tendencies. How the Greeks viewed war isn't really relevant.

 

Ares was indeed a villain, but like all but the most psychopathic villains he saw his cause as just. He believed, or at least had convinced himself, that humanity was fundamentally flawed, and the world would be better if we were wiped out so it could start over again -- with him in charge, of course. His position was that Humanity made wars, and even if he facilitated their destructiveness we were the ones responsible for it. That's the reason I actually appreciated the characters of Gen. Ludendorff and Dr. Poison. They embodied exactly the human evil that Ares accused us all of having inherently in us.

 

World War II was the kind of justifiable conflict with a greater evil you're talking about; which was a big reason why the producers of this film used WW I as the backdrop. The reasons for that war were grey and murky, and as the first "modern" war it was particularly destructive, causing much suffering for innocent people caught between the factions. As such it was much more amenable to the position the film was taking: that war is inherently bad. You may say that war is sometimes necessary, that it can ultimately lead to better outcomes, and I agree; but IMO resorting to war is a concession that civilized means to resolve conflicts have failed, and all we have to fall back on is death and destruction. So I'm glad that Steve Trevor did not try to justify war. His reason for fighting was the same as Diana's -- to stop the fighting as soon as possible, so as many lives as possible could be saved.

 

I heard one reviewer of the film assert that the real villain of this movie is not Ludendorff or Dr. Poison, or even Ares -- it's war itself, the wanton destruction that humanity is capable of. And Diana comes to believe the only way to fight that is with compassion. I agree with you that that is her journey in this movie.

[Pattern Ghost]

They could have handled Ares in a more nuanced way. The Greeks . . .

 

don't write for DC/WB.

 

To be fair, since we're talking about ancient Greece, they're all dead anyway.

 

But this is the DC version of Ares, not the "real" version. Comic versions of ancient pantheons never match up with real world ones. The Vikings and Ancient Greeks never depicted their gods with as many Kirby dots, for example.

[Bazza]

Will also point out that Athena was also the goddess of war, not just Ares.

[Pattern Ghost]

Will also point out that Athena was also the goddess of war, not just Ares.

 

It's not really so cut and dry as that, though. Depending on which of the many versions of each you reference, they're gods of varous aspects of war.

[Lord Liaden]

But this is the DC version of Ares, not the "real" version. Comic versions of ancient pantheons never match up with real world ones. The Vikings and Ancient Greeks never depicted their gods with as many Kirby dots, for example.

 

Their loss. Everything is better with Kirby dots. Just ask Cruella deVille.

[Greywind]

Athena was the Goddess of Strategy. Ares was the God of Brutality.

[Bazza]

Men are from Mars. Women are from Minerva.

[zslane]

And Arthur Brown was the God of Hell Fire.

[mattingly]

The Vikings and Ancient Greeks never depicted their gods with as many Kirby dots, for example.

 

And their cultures are extinct. Coincidence? I think not!

[Michael Hopcroft]

After a little more reflection, it occurs to me that Diana was very lucky anyone listened to her. Steve greased the rails, obviously, and it was clearly needed -- because despite her obvious talents, nearly everybody must have imagined she was out of her mind,. There were a couple of times where use of the Lasso of Truth at inopportune times would have really led Diana to some very confusing places for one simple reason.

 

Diana hunts Ares.

 

Ares only discovers Diana exists when he meets her.

 

Nobody else has even heard of Ares except possibly as part of mythology classwork in college.

 

When Steve tells Diana he'll help her find Ares, it's a bluff. He's just desperate to get off the island. He doesn't have the slightest clue about Ares.

 

The German spy in London may know of Ludendorff, but nothing about Ares. If he had not bit down on that cyanide capsule, his response to Diana's question would have been "I don't know anything about Ares". which would only have served to confuse poor Diana.

 

Ludendorff? He isn't posing as Ares. He isn't pretending to be anybody. The film has been setting us up oto think he's Ares, while all the while dropping subtle hints that he's really not. Even when he dances with Diana and gives his talk in praise of the spirit of war, he has no idea that he's setting himself up to be the target of her superhuman wrath,. I don;t recall if she ever calls him Ares, or how he reacted if she did.

 

Ludendorff is not directed by Ares. Dr. Poison is not guided by his hand (she uses ancient languages as a code because it's something people wouldn't be looking for)/ They are evil, but motivated by the very human desire to see their nation victorious in a completely human conflict. Ares may be pulling some of the strings, but the war is not something he tailor-made to order. All war and all desire to fight did not end when he died, and there were other very large wars in the post-Ares DCEU. Diana's greatest and most alarming discovery is that human beings are not puppets on a stage. They can control their own destinies, for good or ill, so the best she can do is give a little prodding in the right direction where she can. 

[Lord Liaden]

The hero's journey in this movie is almost as much Steve Trevor's as it is Diana's. They complement each other, they learn from each other. They become partners in every sense. One of my favorite scenes in the movie is the fight with the German troops in the center of the Belgian village, because as awesome as Diana is, Steve is right by her side kicking much ass himself.

[Pattern Ghost]

2 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

Dr. Poison is not guided by his hand

 

I'm 98.625% certain they actually show Ares in an intangible/ghostly state walking around behind her while she works, giving her divine inspiration. So, while she may not be motivated by Ares, he's certainly helping her research along, to stir the pot.

 

 

[zslane]

I think it's pretty clear that Diana's shattered idealism (i.e., "kill Ares and humans will stop going to war") was the primary element of character development in the movie. I don't think she or any of the Amazons believed humans were puppets whose strings were being pulled by the gods; after all, the gods were all long gone except for Ares. Rather, she merely believed that Ares was like a disease rotting the soul of humanity from the inside. Unfortunately, the penchant for violence and warfare is indelibly woven into our DNA (thanks, testosterone), and killing Ares was never going to change that. It's a little surprising that the Amazons didn't know that, but I guess that's what thousands of years of total isolation does to one's perspective.

[Zeropoint]

Quote

The film has been setting us up oto think he's Ares, while all the while dropping subtle hints that he's really not.

 

I have to wonder about this. I can only speak for myself, but I thought it was obvious from the beginning that Ludendorf was not Ares. Maybe I caught those "subtle hints" more clearly; maybe I'm just cynical enough to go directly to "humans don't need any help to be violent bastards", but at no point did I think that Ludendorf was Ares, or that the audience was ever intended to think that. Do we have an official answer from the film's creators on this? Does it even matter in these "death of the author" days?

 

Edit: to put the subtext of this post into text: Is it just me? Am I wrong here?

[Lord Liaden]

I believe Luddendorf was intended by the writers and director to be a red herring. A few bits of business in the movie, like his speech about war to Diana, and Dr. Poison's gas to "restore your strength," were inserted to help foster that impression. I know people who bought that misdirection when they first saw the movie, and others who didn't.

 

I have to say that I liked this version of Ares. The atypicalness of his depiction, at least until the climactic battle, and his description of his motivation and activities, were refreshing to me.

[slikmar]

3 hours ago, zslane said:

It's a little surprising that the Amazons didn't know that, but I guess that's what thousands of years of total isolation does to one's perspective.

Actually, I think the general and at least the queen did know this and that Hippolyta kept trying to warn Diana, but could never get through, as Diana's belief was based on meeting 1 man, who seemed to want to end the war, and was pretty much so stubborn, she refused to see anything else. Her belief in goodness (partly from being the only child on the island and her mother and others trying to protect her from reality) overwhelmed any other arguments.

[Cassandra]

Given the disappointing box office of Justice League I'm not sure this version of Wonder Woman has much of a future.