Thoughts on PD and ED in Fantasy

[Tasha]

First edition Fantasy Hero was really interesting the way the powers were set up, with alternate names and groupings.  If it weren't for the effort to make characters transfer directly between settings as a generic system, it would be worth it to have a different set of powers and names like that.

 

I do like the idea of an alternate "Magic" defense, covering mystical attacks (as well as perhaps defenses against supernatural attacks) though.  Maybe Power Defense would cover that in a fantasy setting.

 

Most of the effects were just renames of Champions Powers. Though I liked the idea of "Cloak" (Basically invisibility that you paid for each -1 Per the target had to see the character) Too many abilities were IMHO too expensive. (ie +1 OCV was 10pts). I also liked the Analyze effect being bought as d6 vs the PP of what the PC was analyzing. 

[Tasha]

To the OP, ED is something that comes up pretty often in High Fantasy and Middle fantasy games. It IMHO works pretty well. In low to no magic/Psychic power Heroic games I would be tempted to have a "Def" ability that cost 2pts/1 pip of defense.

[Old Man]

Honestly in all the FH campaigns I played ED was never used as often as PD and it didn't matter.  Players just didn't spend as many points on ED for their characters and it was fine.

[Richgee]

This seems to be the same question as "what is a susceptibility worth". If you run a campaign set on a desert land filled with sand and parched salt flats then susceptibility to water is worth way less points than in a pirate sea campaign.

 

In the same way if no one uses energy attacks in your campaign then ED could be cheaper or simply dropped.

 

My house rules on ED include reductions to armour def based on the type of energy attack used. If your in full plate armour and you get hit by a "lightning" attack you get no ED or 1/2 from the armour depending on what your standing in. Against the same attack you get double def in leather.

 

Sustained heat attacks cause seepage in metal armour, where you get full ed but after a few hits to the same location the armour retains the heat and you start to pick up a point of body damage ever 6 segment if you can't cool it down. Leather based armour starts to burn and looses body from fire, rapidly reducing its effectiveness to all attack types.

[eepjr24]

This seems to be the same question as "what is a susceptibility worth". If you run a campaign set on a desert land filled with sand and parched salt flats then susceptibility to water is worth way less points than in a pirate sea campaign.

 

In the same way if no one uses energy attacks in your campaign then ED could be cheaper or simply dropped.

 

My house rules on ED include reductions to armour def based on the type of energy attack used. If your in full plate armour and you get hit by a "lightning" attack you get no ED or 1/2 from the armour depending on what your standing in. Against the same attack you get double def in leather.

 

Sustained heat attacks cause seepage in metal armour, where you get full ed but after a few hits to the same location the armour retains the heat and you start to pick up a point of body damage ever 6 segment if you can't cool it down. Leather based armour starts to burn and looses body from fire, rapidly reducing its effectiveness to all attack types.

Seems needlessly complicated. Also, not sure why you think leather would offer double protection against electricity. As someone who has worked around Kylstron tubes, I can tell you leather is not going to help you if you get hit by an arc. Leather is used frequently to protect your rubber protective gear from other types of physical damage, though.

[Richgee]

Without wishing to get into an argument over the relative electrical resistance values of medevil steel and treated hardened leather if you do the maths you will see the leather will not save you from a bolt of lightning 4d6+ rka, but will offer some protection from a standard 2d6 electrical rka. My house rules also stop me having to convert every attack based on the grounding rules.

 

Also there is a reason that adventuring warriors should buy smithing and craft skills. Normal weapons and armour are relatively fragile, certain types of damage are more destructive than others to different materials. Even super simplistic dnd recognises this.

A good warrior needs to be able to look after and repair his kit. If combat doesn't damage armour and weapons then why would anyone ever buy the skills.

[eepjr24]

If some types of damage are more destructive in Hero, you build them that way. No need to house rule a bunch of extra complexity. You think lightning should affect metal armor double? Ok, buy it as a 2d6 RKA and an additional +2d6 RKA only versus those wearing metal armor. Or build the armor in your games with a limitation "Not versus electrical attacks and limited versus heat attacks". Or just buy down the ED on it? Metal is going to do poorly against many types of energy, maybe just buy it some ED that is "Only versus acid and other non-conductive energy types".

 

Treated leather armor does offer some protection, that is why it has an ED value. 

 

I generally make players tell me they are spending time on caring for gear. In very realistic campaigns, I include KS: Arms and Armor for fighter types. But weapon smithing seems a bit over the top to learn how to use a whet stone, oil your gear and sew tears.

 

YMMV, your campaign can do whatever you like, obviously.

 

- E

[Richgee]

I think it's probably a fundamental difference in the way we view damage. I don't see the damage as variable. If a pc buys a spell with an effect fire,acid, lightning or what ever that becomes a fixed quantity. If a pc wants to build their character with the family magical armour and pays points the pd and ed are always as bought against all attacks.

 

It is only real world items that these rules affect. I don't see the reduction in effectiveness as a function of the attack but rather a natural susceptibility of the item. The way I rule it the electrical bolt doesn't suddenly jump from 2d6 to 4d6 it's just that steel is a very good conductor so its ed has a reduced effect against electrical attacks.

 

I use 5e and the base rules for real world items take no account of the effect of real world physics or chemistry when looking at how items interact with the environment. On paper if you want to protect your vile of acid you should put it in a metal flask, but we all know the metal will corrode. That's not because the acid suddenly got better in the metal flask but rather because real world steel is susceptible to acid.

 

Maybe it's the chemist in me that makes me look at it that way but I find it simpler to work in those terms.

[Lucius]

Molten pitch whether burning or not is a factor in medieval warfare. So is flaming arrows. Boiling oil  is also very common.

I would argue in low fantasy more common than typical fantasy attacks. 

 

In real world there things that can take a lot physical punishment but not as much energy. Wood, which is used in palisades and defenses in a fantasy setting is one. Having a High PD defense wall stand up better to non magical fire because you think magic only attacks energy is silly to me.

Or the notion that the thief in leathers who has a ring of fire resistance (+5 ed vs heat and fire) isn't protected from getting hit by boiling oil because that is mundane and is resisted by PD. OOPS!

 

Sorry use arcane defense let them get it cheap at x3. Problem solved.

I am not defending the idea to use ED as a general magic defense and to let PD stop all non-magic damage. I don't agree with that idea.

 

But I am saying that I find it problematic that PD and ED have identical costs despite the fact that one will be useful sometimes and the other will be helpful in almost every single fight.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks if Power Defense equals Energy Defense over time?

[eepjr24]

I think ED and Power Defense are equally useful in what they are used for. I think Power Defense (for good reason) is purchased less than ED without large amounts of magic. I think the same balance generally exists between PD and ED in FH campaigns. Power Defense might even be purchased more in some, who knows. I don't think you need to modify the cost, though. Either it will be bought with enough frequency that new challenges based on it arise or not. And that will shift the balance again as folks decide that fire is nifty because it is not well defended against. If you don't think ED is valuable, as those peasants who roofs were set on fire with flaming arrows.

 

- E

[Ninja-Bear]

Wardsman no matter how you slice it D&D has a simpler damage system. You roll to hit and if hit, then you roll for damage. Whereas Hero, you roll to hit. If hit then roll damage. Compare to resistance. Then mark down damage if any. Last time I looked, 2 steps are smaller than three steps.

[Wardsman]

Wardsman no matter how you slice it D&D has a simpler damage system. You roll to hit and if hit, then you roll for damage. Whereas Hero, you roll to hit. If hit then roll damage. Compare to resistance. Then mark down damage if any. Last time I looked, 2 steps are smaller than three steps.

But hidden in that simple roll and hit points are feints and counter feints, blind stupid luck , and a host of other factors that get rolled up in one roll and hit points. Tell me have you ever tried to use the armor class adjustments based on weapon speed factor in the original AD&D DMG?

In fact I have to say that I have never seen anyone run a D&D game by all the rules. They cherry pick. 

At least they did in the AD&D day. Can't speak to the new stuff.

 

BTW thick leather is damn useful for handling 900 degree cast iron which has cooled some after it released from sand mold..

I know.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like ED being in games where its not used much simply for that reason: in a fantasy game, since ED doesn't come up much, that makes things that target ED more effective.  If your armor and personal defenses are weaker against Energy than physical attacks, then a 5d6 lightning bolt will hit harder than a 5d6 club.  That makes mages more capable without needing to give them more points.

[Ninja-Bear]

But hidden in that simple roll and hit points are feints and counter feints, blind stupid luck , and a host of other factors that get rolled up in one roll and hit points. Tell me have you ever tried to use the armor class adjustments based on weapon speed factor in the original AD&D DMG?

In fact I have to say that I have never seen anyone run a D&D game by all the rules. They cherry pick.

At least they did in the AD&D day. Can't speak to the new stuff.

 

BTW thick leather is damn useful for handling 900 degree cast iron which has cooled some after it released from sand mold..

I know.

The most D&D I have ran was Basic (Rules Cyclopedia).

 

Everything you talked about though applies to Hero too. Who uses all the rules? And what really is the difference between DnD hit points and Hero system special effects? In my mind combat luck shiws the link if you will between Hero and DnD and how they can be simular.

[Wardsman]

The most D&D I have ran was Basic (Rules Cyclopedia).

 

Everything you talked about though applies to Hero too. Who uses all the rules? And what really is the difference between DnD hit points and Hero system special effects? In my mind combat luck shiws the link if you will between Hero and DnD and how they can be simular.

Bad analogy.

1. AD&D was never a toolkit system
2. Hitpoints are closer to body and stun in hero yet they are not

You were supposed to use all the rules in PHB and DMG. But never saw any who did.

D&D hit points seem kind of weak actually. When converting I use 

(2 x hit points)/level

It gives me a halfway decent body for the character. Stun is figured normally.

Like I said the flaws were there early on. 2nd edition Champions and RQ were my escape route.

Pity it is still the main gateway into RPG's the ideas that are the base of the system are incredibly old(mid 1970's)

 

Yes I played with this when it was the new rules  and the old guard who taught me sneered at it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Wardsman you say that Hero has optional rules? Where were you when I suggested NOT using hit locations for fantasy and another poster dared to ask about using super heroic rules instead of heroic? You should have heard all the "you can't do that!"

[Ninja-Bear]

Bad analogy.

• AD&D was never a toolkit system
• Hitpoints are closer to body and stun in hero yet they are not

You were supposed to use all the rules in PHB and DMG. But never saw any who did.

D&D hit points seem kind of weak actually. When converting I use

(2 x hit points)/level

It gives me a halfway decent body for the character. Stun is figured normally.

Like I said the flaws were there early on. 2nd edition Champions and RQ were my escape route.

Pity it is still the main gateway into RPG's the ideas that are the base of the system are incredibly old(mid 1970's)

 

Yes I played with this when it was the new rules and the old guard who taught me sneered at it.

I think my point has been missed. DnD and Hero are games which use mechanics to similate cinematic combat. Rherfore they are the same in nature though not in application. It really comes down to which system is better based on personal choice. Each has its flaws and strengths.

[Wardsman]

I think my point has been missed. DnD and Hero are games which use mechanics to similate cinematic combat. Rherfore they are the same in nature though not in application. It really comes down to which system is better based on personal choice. Each has its flaws and strengths.

Like I said I learned long ago I prefer skill based systems (Hero & BRP) over Class systems(D&D).

I hear they have some changes but still have the basic flaws. 

But this is all thread drift. To OP I'd just use Arcane defense it was an optional rule in 5th ed Fantasy Hero 

[Manic Typist]

And it's still present in 6th.

[Wardsman]

And it's still present in 6th.

Any changes beside no longer being a figured characteristic?

[eepjr24]

I don't have FH 5th, but in 6th it is not figured and cost is up to the GM, with suggestions from 2-5 points. 

 

- E

[Wardsman]

I don't have FH 5th, but in 6th it is not figured and cost is up to the GM, with suggestions from 2-5 points. 

 

- E

Given that it includes PD, ED, MD, power Defense, and Flash Defense with the limitation that only protects from magic SFX, 2 seems low,

Your milage may vary.

[eepjr24]

Given that it includes PD, ED, MD, power Defense, and Flash Defense with the limitation that only protects from magic SFX, 2 seems low,

Your milage may vary.

Entangles too. lol. I would probably go with 5 points if I allowed it at all. Or just use Damage Negation which is a much better mechanic in my mind. And then you can buy power and flash defense as you like. Entangles I generally don't allow a broad single defense against although most target STR, with the odd EGO or CON based ones out there as well. 

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I think giving people the ability to buy dice of Damage Negation vs magic (all magical offensive abilities - flash, adjustment, entangles, mental powers, etc) is the way to go about simulating magic resistance.  Michael Surbrook recently noted that in converting D&D to Hero, it works best to give each 5% of Magic Resistance 1d6 Magic Damage Negation.

 

In a high fantasy or wild fantasy setting, that's your best option I think.  But I would insist people had a good reason for it, not just "I don't want magic to hurt me."  Like a racial ability or some item.

[Wardsman]

Yeah I think giving people the ability to buy dice of Damage Negation vs magic (all magical offensive abilities - flash, adjustment, entangles, mental powers, etc) is the way to go about simulating magic resistance.  Michael Surbrook recently noted that in converting D&D to Hero, it works best to give each 5% of Magic Resistance 1d6 Magic Damage Negation.

 

In a high fantasy or wild fantasy setting, that's your best option I think.  But I would insist people had a good reason for it, not just "I don't want magic to hurt me."  Like a racial ability or some item.

Is that what damage reduction is in 6th?