Pattern Ghost Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, Old Man said: But $400 million for troops to rush to the border and machine gun turn back the caravan. I'm pretty sure posse comitatus prevents both. (For regular Army at least. Not state Guard units.Pretty sure they were talking about sending RA, but could be wrong.) They can't act as law enforcement on the border. All they can do is provide logistical support. Even if Trump gives the orders, the commanders are obligated to disregard unlawful orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 Shooting unarmed migrants at the border would drop support for a hard line on immigration below politically viable levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Unless the migrants/refugees throw rocks first. The administration has established that throwing rocks would provoke the right of the soldiers to defend themselves with their weapons. So long as the soldiers only do the logistics support work they have been assigned to, I have hope there will never be a point when a frustrated migrant has even the opportunity to throw a rock, prompting a lethal response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Justice Ginsburg released from hospital after breaking three ribs in a fall. https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-justice-ginsburg-working-fall-101653457.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Sociotard said: Unless the migrants/refugees throw rocks first. The administration has established that throwing rocks would provoke the right of the soldiers to defend themselves with their weapons. So long as the soldiers only do the logistics support work they have been assigned to, I have hope there will never be a point when a frustrated migrant has even the opportunity to throw a rock, prompting a lethal response. I'm not the least bit worried about the migrants throwing rocks. People who are just trying to stay alive don't usually go around picking unnecessary and potentially suicidal fights. Their supporters and people pretending to be supporters are another matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 I don't suppose we could frame Trump for say trying to steal the Mona Lisa so he's stuck in France for a while. He definitely is a flight risk so they could hold him there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 9 hours ago, Sociotard said: Unless the migrants/refugees throw rocks first. The administration has established that throwing rocks would provoke the right of the soldiers to defend themselves with their weapons. So long as the soldiers only do the logistics support work they have been assigned to, I have hope there will never be a point when a frustrated migrant has even the opportunity to throw a rock, prompting a lethal response. Shooting at rock throwers would violate the Uniform Code of Military Justice, as I understand it, and soldiers have a duty to refuse unlawful orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Nope, a rock (say, the size of a brick) is easily lethal force. No rules of engagement prevent soldiers from defending themselves from such. The only question is, what circumstances would prompt the refugees to want to throw rocks, and what circumstances would provide soldiers as a target for rock throwing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Trump's M.O. to this point has been to make a big show of being tough, to sell that image to his base of support, and to distract public attention from issues that really worry him, like the Mueller investigation. But he doesn't think through the consequences of his impulses, like with that immigrant-family-separation fiasco. With putting combat troops in the path of unarmed migrants, though, there's the tragic potential for loss of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 The discussion is purely academic because US troops are legally prohibited from enforcing the law, and because asylum seekers aren’t going to throw rocks. However, Trump swore to follow the UCMJ in his oath of office. Sentries are to use the minimum force necessary to control a threat; troops in body armor are not sufficiently threatened by individual brickbats to justify the use of deadly force as Trump suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 The discussion is purely academic because US troops are legally prohibited from enforcing the law, and because asylum seekers aren’t going to throw rocks. However, Trump swore to follow the UCMJ in his oath of office. Sentries are to use the minimum force necessary to control a threat; troops in body armor are not sufficiently threatened by individual brickbats to justify the use of deadly force as Trump suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Meanwhile: Nigerian Army Uses Trump’s Words to Justify Fatal Shooting of Rock-Throwing Protesters https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/02/world/africa/nigeria-trump-rocks.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 I suppose that's more evidence to back Trump's claim that black people love him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 43 minutes ago, Sociotard said: Meanwhile: Nigerian Army Uses Trump’s Words to Justify Fatal Shooting of Rock-Throwing Protesters I think they'd have shot those people anyway. It's what they do. I think the bigger issue is that we're propping up groups like the Nigerian Army in an effort to fight the extremists, when they're no better. Our government has a long history of doing that, and has continued to do so under every administration in recent history. Starlord 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 Will Mueller's move of going through the Southern District of New York for his endigtments and sealing much )or at least some) of the evidence that hasn't been made public yet protecting him from the sycophant that Trump has named as acting Attorny General ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 Apparently, FLorida's gotta Florida Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 5 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said: I think they'd have shot those people anyway. It's what they do. I think the bigger issue is that we're propping up groups like the Nigerian Army in an effort to fight the extremists, when they're no better. Our government has a long history of doing that, and has continued to do so under every administration in recent history. [points towards the cluster fluff in Yemen, where we're supplying the Saudis] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 Which is something that pains me every election. Obama supported the Saudis in Yemen. Trump isn't really any different. I will never get a chance to vote for someone who promotes peace in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 It is hard to promote peace in the world when so many world governments don't seem to want it. Not that it isn't worth trying, but reality keeps getting in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 10 hours ago, Sociotard said: Which is something that pains me every election. Obama supported the Saudis in Yemen. Trump isn't really any different. I will never get a chance to vote for someone who promotes peace in the world. This is fair. I would note, however, that peace-promotion is arguably a form of humanitarian interventionism, inasmuch as we would be using our soft power to influence countries to cease conflict. This is distinguishable from both isolationism and non-interventionism, both of which would do nothing in the event of a conflict which does not involve allies or impact our vital national interests. China is non-interventionist, but actually does very little by way of promoting peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 5 hours ago, Starlord said: Honest to God, it's like he's BEGGING for the state to secede some days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 Which would mean fewer elected Democrats giving him a hard time, which might very well appeal to him. But this is S.O.P. for Trump to this point: portray everyone who opposes him as incompetent, weak, evil, or otherwise "an enemy of the people," and threaten them to try to sound like a Strong Leader! Never mind that cutting federal funding for California's forestry management would just increase the suffering for victims of wildfires. Oh, and blaming state mismanagement for increasing fire frequency sidesteps that inconvenient "global warming" issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 Even abroad the President causes trouble as he postpones visiting a cemetery on Saturday due to bad weather. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46168995 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 He managed to deeply offend the Marines by doing so. However, by all accounts Trump was depressed and anxious leading up to his meeting with Putin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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