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Simon

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While I wait for the various images to load...

 

Kathleen Parker's latest syndicated column raises an interesting speculation. As she notes, Donald Trump's established MO is to throw stink bombs and act crazy to distract people and command the news cycle so people don't pay attention to other things. What else is happening that he might not want us looking at? Maybe... Jeffrey Epstein? They're buds -- she notes reports of a party where the attendees consisted of Messrs. Epstein, and Trump a bevy of young ladies, and no one else. Kind of makes one go, "Huh."

 

Dean Shomshak

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The list CrooshairsCollie posted reminds me of an editorial cartoon I saw years ago. An Angry White Man expostulated that government paying for health care was socialized medicine! And the post office was socialized mail delivery! And public schools were socialized education! And the military was socialized defense! And... Well, there were only six panels, but clearly this could have gone on much longer.

 

(Fun fact: In The Communist Manifesto, Marx and Engels specifically call for public schools. Also central banks and a number of other institutions that are now about as controversial as pre-sliced bread. Yes, I have in fact read The Communist Manifesto.)

 

Dean Shomshak

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InvestoPedia has a good article on whether nor not Social Security is a Socialist program.  Here's a snippet.

 

The Bottom Line

It's interesting to remember that the U.S. got the idea for a social-security system from 19th century Germany.

That very capitalist monarchy launched an old-age social insurance program in 1889 at the behest of Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, partly to stave off radical socialist ideas being floated at the time.

The original social security was actually an anti-socialist maneuver by a conservative government.

 

Nevertheless, because the American government plays such a dominant role in the U.S. Social Security system – deciding how much and when employees and employers pay into the system, how much individuals receive in benefits when they get them, and preventing almost everyone from opting out – it seems fair to call the Social Security program a form of socialism.

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Basically, traditional liberal Democrats and newfangled progressive Democrats are both Social Democrats, using state intervention to offset the ill effects of market capitalism and providing a safety net for all citizens.  They're not really out to seize control of private corporations but instead to regulate and reform them.  So calling Democratic policies "socialist" is just hyperbolic silliness.  We're just trying to continue doing what FDR started, what LBJ continued, and what Obama revived.  But social democracy does require a robust tax base, which is really what upsets conservatives.  

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1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

No, he's just of the school that believes if you say something often enough and loudly enough, people will believe it's the truth in spite of proof to the contrary. Unfortunately he has a lot of evidence suggesting he's right.

I haven't seen this much gaslighting since the 'cigarette lighter and farts' fad.

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I think, instead of addressing the definition of socialism,  I have been thinking of maybe approaching these issues with what specifically causes socialism to 'damage' society and how that relates to what the conversation is talking about.

 

I've had some back-and-forth arguments, and they've usually summed up as 'people having different priorities'.  ie- one person is talking about how belief is just an excuse to for individuals to do bad things, the other is talking about how belief galvanizes groups into dangerous mob behavior.

 

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On 7/18/2019 at 9:25 PM, ScottishFox said:

InvestoPedia has a good article on whether nor not Social Security is a Socialist program.  Here's a snippet.

The Bottom Line

It's interesting to remember that the U.S. got the idea for a social-security system from 19th century Germany.

That very capitalist monarchy launched an old-age social insurance program in 1889 at the behest of Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, partly to stave off radical socialist ideas being floated at the time.

The original social security was actually an anti-socialist maneuver by a conservative government.

 

Nevertheless, because the American government plays such a dominant role in the U.S. Social Security system – deciding how much and when employees and employers pay into the system, how much individuals receive in benefits when they get them, and preventing almost everyone from opting out – it seems fair to call the Social Security program a form of socialism.

 

I think on every level that social security is a socialist programme.  It is often the way that a government will implement a lesser form of something that radicals are proposing to take the wind out of the radicals sails.  It is harder for the radicals to whip up the populace against the government when they cannot offer something different.  While Bismark may have introduced a social insurance policy, a socialist programme, it was because this was the most effective way of dealing with radical socialists - it is why centrist parties dominated most liberal democracies - simply stealing the slogans from their radical opponents that had a wide resonance and implementing paler versions of the ideas behind the slogans.

 

I went to a lecture in Cambridge where it was postulated that the only true free market in the world right now was drugs.  They are completely outside government control and the production and distribution systems care only about maximising the profit for the guys at the top.  Anything that gets in the way of the flow of money is dealt with, there is no thoughts about diverting the money for other things (that do not also make money).  Drugs money in this market will not create jobs, will not deliver healthcare, will not do science and will not pay for national defence, roads or schools.  It is pure capitalism.  It is also something that the USA has declared war on....

 

Doc

 

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OTOH I remember during the conflicts with the massive Colombian drug cartels in the Eighties and Nineties, that the cartels often had substantial support within their home communities because they put no small amount of money into charitable works benefiting the local populace. Granted, at least some of the motivation for that was to cultivate the public's assistance and protection; but is that so different from governments' motivations?

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Absolutely.  When the cartels got big enough they became quasi governments and brought with them the trappings of government (but not democracy).  The problem is that government of this nature is way back to the warlords of old and the only law is that imposed at the point of a sword (or gun).  It remains a free market simply because the expenditure comes not from obligation but because the people at the top can see an economic benefit from that spending, not because they think it is the right thing to do.

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