Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[Starlord]

[Lord Liaden]

24 minutes ago, Starlord said:

Trump provoked deadly Capitol riot, Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell says

 

"The mob was fed lies. They were provoked by the president and other powerful people," McConnell said.

 

The log in McConnell's eye just caught fire... 

[csyphrett]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

I'd like to read more about this. Source, link, please? (Yes, I can Google, but my service is real slow.)

 

Dean Shomshak

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/19/lauren-boebert-tour-capitol-riots/

I think I have read too many stories for free since it asked me to suscribe.

CES 

15 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

The log in McConnell's eye just caught fire... 

The leopards will never eat my face.

CES

[unclevlad]

Any Trump resurgence will be complicated, IMO, by the court cases and the shelf-load's worth of books we'll see *from insiders* about the last 4 years.  His failings in business and as a leader are going to be on full display, and the facade he's created about himself is going to crumble.

 

And we'll have to see how long it lasts, but his business interests may be about to collapse from lack of support, as corporations withdraw from his resorts and properties.  At that level, corporate travel's a major element of a hotel's business.  I would also expect that some percentage of wealthy travelers find other places.

 

The Boebert story is complicated.  Conflicting reports about that possible tour...and not on just the partisan media lines.  BUT, there's this too:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/us/politics/lauren-boebert-republican.html?searchResultPosition=1

 

In case it's paywalled too:

--she tried to walk through new metal detectors without submitting to having her purse checked, or being wanded

--she brags about carrying a gun in a city with VERY tight gun control 

--I don't know about the food poisoning, but she's been very defiant about masks at her restaurant, and advocated for her servers carrying guns

--and of course, the usual...banned from Twitter for election claims, screaming that a House rule requiring masks is violating her rights, etc.

 

It's likely she'll be more of a nuisance than anything;  the House is much larger than the Senate so their rules have always been more capable of muzzling someone.  And a LOT of Republicans don't like her, so she's gonna have a hard time getting anything done.

[TrickstaPriest]

6 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Any Trump resurgence will be complicated, IMO, by the court cases and the shelf-load's worth of books we'll see *from insiders* about the last 4 years.  His failings in business and as a leader are going to be on full display, and the facade he's created about himself is going to crumble.

 

 

Literally still see half the people I know are 'on the fence at best'.

 

I think we are underestimating the effect of propaganda over years, let alone the two weeks its been.

[unclevlad]

7 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

Literally still see half the people I know are 'on the fence at best'.

 

I think we are underestimating the effect of propaganda over years, let alone the two weeks its been.

 

But not if multiple insiders and multiple angles go to work.  Plus, I mean this will stop DJT.  NOT the movement.  Not Little Donald or Eric or Jared;  heck they might be able to ride both a "Trump martyrdom" wave and a "well he wasn't perfect but he was still FOR US!!" sentiment.  The King is dead, long live the King, if you will.

[TrickstaPriest]

8 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

But not if multiple insiders and multiple angles go to work.  Plus, I mean this will stop DJT.  NOT the movement.  Not Little Donald or Eric or Jared;  heck they might be able to ride both a "Trump martyrdom" wave and a "well he wasn't perfect but he was still FOR US!!" sentiment.  The King is dead, long live the King, if you will.

 

Literally the sentiment I'm running into is "everyone is lying.  All of them.  Every single one.  You don't get it.  You never get it.  etc etc" summing up as 'you are a fool for listening to anyone trump/oan are the only people telling the truth!'

 

There's a lot of people I'm running into that don't believe this yet, but are rationalizing in the exact same way as these people.  Which means they are literally on that road, right now, to becoming those people.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, TrickstaPriest said:

 

Literally the sentiment I'm running into is "everyone is lying.  All of them.  Every single one.  You don't get it.  You never get it.  etc etc" summing up as 'you are a fool for listening to anyone trump/oan are the only people telling the truth!'

 

There's a lot of people I'm running into that don't believe this yet, but are rationalizing in the exact same way as these people.  Which means they are literally on that road, right now, to becoming those people.

 

But that's why it matters if it's the insiders.  Pence won't do it but Barr might, and some others will.  There will definitely be some that'll just blow it off and lump them in with the other Trump Betrayers, but there will be others that will be swayed.  Trump doesn't have to lose that much in the way of support before he can't dominate.  It'll take more to marginalize him, for sure, but even that's not out of the question IMO.

 

Plus, marginalizing DJT won't end things.  "Well ok, maybe Trump wasn't the right man for the job...but they still stole the election and we gotta make sure that never happens again!"  That sort of thing.  Just because DJT isn't the focus does not spell the end of Trumpism per se.  It might must require a passing of the mantle.

[Hermit]

Yeah. I've already got relatives putting things on their facebook  like a link to an article how a limo got set on fire in protests against  in 2016 when Trump got inaugurated. I asked what the point of the article WAS? was it to give pro trump forces THEIR turn to destroy property  ,or was it some weird attempt to find an equviincy with an attempt to over throw the government on Jan 6?

 

Said relation did not reply, but soon put up a long quote from Alexis de Tocqueville about Tyranny in Democratic Republics taking the form of shunning. I tried not to read too much into it... but it sure sounds like she's angry that I asked a question regarding the point of the article earlier. 

Asking folks to provide facts apparently is a form of tyranny now. But I didn't say that, because it might NOT be about that, and if she's feeling victimized and passive agressive about it, not much I can do.

 

Then someone else responds to her post about  preferring that "benign tyranny to A. O. C.'s plan to use federal funds to psychologically reprogram conservatives ...", which, turns out to be bullshit on many levels...though I was nicer than that when I tried to explain that it was for those who needed help DE programming from Q Anon and White Supremacy. Of course, said person went into a rant about the GOVERNMENT being terrible... and it should never have the power to judge people that way without a hearing etc... I finally just asked for EVIDENCE she had that this was indeed AOC's plan other wise it was idle speculation at best. (Again I was trying to be nice). I expect I'm about to get in trouble with family for offending some grand matriarch on some cousins' side by actually asking her to support her bullshit.

 

Some Trump supporters are SO desperate to pretend they haven't enabled the near destruction of our democracy that they are scrambling to find ANYTHING to take the moral highground or at least claim parity. Which is only going to happen if you create some MORE lies and try to sell them to yourself and others.. which is how we ended up with jackholes wearing buffalo head dresses invading Capitol hill convinced they're the good guys.

 

 

[TrickstaPriest]

11 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Some Trump supporters are SO desperate to pretend they haven't enabled the near destruction of our democracy that they are scrambling to find ANYTHING to take the moral highground or at least claim parity. Which is only going to happen if you create some MORE lies and try to sell them to yourself and others.. which is how we ended up with jackholes wearing buffalo head dresses invading Capitol hill convinced they're the good guys.

 

 

Yep.  Exactly 😕

 

And in general, a lot of people who aren't as deep in the hole just say "oh that doesn't pass the sniff test" because the general Q bs is to take advantage of everyone's suspicion of everything to make it all seem 'relatively even', excusing literal sedition in favor of monarchy/dictatorship because 'them riots were bad'.  Or just suggesting 'those people weren't really trying a coup'.  Even when there's literally hundreds of videos of the event, and many people chanting/saying they want to 'overturn the election' and/or punish the traitors, etc...

[Old Man]

43 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Then someone else responds to her post about  preferring that "benign tyranny to A. O. C.'s plan to use federal funds to psychologically reprogram conservatives ...",

 

I laughed out loud at this, thanks.

[Ragitsu]

Have I mentioned how glad I am to have missed out on Thanksgiving Day last year?

[unclevlad]

And here we go.  Hawley's going to be a major PITA when he can be.  Consequences be damned.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/19/politics/hawley-mayorkas-dhs/index.html

 

 

[DShomshak]

I don't doubt that Trumpism will continue its corrosive path for years, even if Trump is kiboshed. But my sister recently read an interesting article by conservative Evangelical anti-Trumper David French in which he suggests that a Trump downfall -- he dealt with impeachment, but I think a business crash and burn might work as well -- will *not* result in  Trump Martyrdom Myth. French says that his tour of duty in Iraq gave him some experience with insurgents, and insurgents love power and winning. A Trump who has clearly failed and been defeated doesn't feed that hunger.

 

(I'd provide a link, but my sister says it's a subscribers-only blog post.)

 

My own thoughts: Trump is a brilliant grifter, but he has some real problems becoming a martyr. First, he won't be dead. It's important that martyrs be dead so they can be simplified into stories that believers can tell.

 

Second, martyrs don't whine. At least in their myth, they walk to their doom with head high, eyes open and a psalm on their lips. Slain, but undefeated, knowing that the enemies who think they have won have actually lost. Trump never frickin' shuts up about how victimized he is. He's skilled at telling his cultists that his victimization is theirs, too, but... he's still a whiner. Not good form for a martyr.

 

(I also suspect the "We're victims together" story also works in large part because Trump remains rich and apparently "winning" despite his victimhood. He's still winning, so you're still winning too! Doesn't work as well if he has clearly, unambiguously, suffered a major loss. Losing the election is a start. If he ends up seeking political and business asylum in Saudi, it looks even worse. But he's been counted out before, only to come back as obnoxious as ever, so I still can't call this a certainty. Merely that his comeback isn't certain, either.)

 

Dean Shomshak

Also, just heard on my local public radio station: WA Sec'y of State Kim Wyman, last West Coast Republican in a statewide elective office, says that post Jan 6, she's not sure she can stay in the Republican Party anymore.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Hermit]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

I laughed out loud at this, thanks.

 

Oh, it gets better...

Honestly, I could understand if she went after my spelling, but no that's not what bothered this matriarch from a distant wing of relations

 

Quote

 

Your terminology in the sentence "all AOC has done is propose additional funding to help those who have been indoctrinated into Q anon and White supremists" is revealing.

"additional funding" -

""help" -

"indoctrinated" -

and the implication that Q anon and White supremacists are evil and to be neutralized -

I think that we shall have to agree to disagree.

 

 

These are the sort of folks on one of my relative's feed.

 

THIS is the Bleep we're up against.

 

[TrickstaPriest]

15 minutes ago, Hermit said:

Honestly, I could understand if she went after my spelling, but no that's not what bothered this matriarch from a distant wing of relations

 

15 minutes ago, Hermit said:

THIS is the Bleep we're up against.

 

She sounds positively lovely 😕

 

Can't imagine why she might feel uneasy about 'white supremacists' being considered evil >_<

[Old Man]

11 minutes ago, TrickstaPriest said:

Can't imagine why she might feel uneasy about 'white supremacists' being considered evil >_<

 

This is why, despite the incoming Biden administration, America has a long way to go to get out of the hole it's currently in.  Three decades of indoctrination by cable news and social media literally have 40% of Americans believing Hitler was a bad guy but he had the right idea.  The federal government is hamstrung by Q Cucks Clansmen like Hawley because a those Americans are now indoctrinated to think white supremacy is a feature, not a bug, and they vote accordingly.

 

Trump may be (almost) gone but his power base is still there and all they need is a new figurehead to rally behind.  Hawley is one of the people applying for the job.  What will happen next is that Democrats will be so fixated on making Trump pay for his transgressions that they will fail to prevent the next figurehead from taking power.  Remember that the Republicans are extremely likely to retake both houses of Congress in 2022. 

[IndianaJoe3]

7 hours ago, Starlord said:

Trump provoked deadly Capitol riot, Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell says

 

"The mob was fed lies. They were provoked by the president and other powerful people," McConnell said.

 

McConnell has decided that Trump is ruining the GOP's long game.

[Pariah]

Everyone remember to dress warm tomorrow.

 

The forecast is calling for -45.

[Hermit]

42 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

This is why, despite the incoming Biden administration, America has a long way to go to get out of the hole it's currently in.  Three decades of indoctrination by cable news and social media literally have 40% of Americans believing Hitler was a bad guy but he had the right idea.  The federal government is hamstrung by Q Cucks Clansmen like Hawley because a those Americans are now indoctrinated to think white supremacy is a feature, not a bug, and they vote accordingly.

 

Trump may be (almost) gone but his power base is still there and all they need is a new figurehead to rally behind.  Hawley is one of the people applying for the job.  What will happen next is that Democrats will be so fixated on making Trump pay for his transgressions that they will fail to prevent the next figurehead from taking power.  Remember that the Republicans are extremely likely to retake both houses of Congress in 2022. 

 

Yeah, the Democrats tend to do that "The blue wave is here"

Trickle trickle splut

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

Trump may be (almost) gone but his power base is still there and all they need is a new figurehead to rally behind.  Hawley is one of the people applying for the job.  What will happen next is that Democrats will be so fixated on making Trump pay for his transgressions that they will fail to prevent the next figurehead from taking power.  Remember that the Republicans are extremely likely to retake both houses of Congress in 2022. 

 

I am of the opinion that making Trump pay for his transgressions, big time, will be an important step in restraining that next would-be figurehead. They all need to see that there are clear and severe consequences to becoming a demagogue and aspiring tyrant, and failing.

 

As for Republicans being "extremely likely" to retake both houses in 2022, I believe that will be strongly affected by what happens under a Biden administration. If the country is doing relatively well in two years and a socialist dictatorial asteroid didn't fall on it , the Dems may hold the line or even make some gains.

[Hermit]

10 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I am of the opinion that making Trump pay for his transgressions, big time, will be an important step in restraining that next would-be figurehead. They all need to see that there are clear and severe consequences to becoming a demagogue and aspiring tyrant, and failing.

 

As for Republicans being "extremely likely" to retake both houses in 2022, I believe that will be strongly affected by what happens under a Biden administration. If the country is doing relatively well in two years and a socialist dictatorial asteroid didn't fall on it , the Dems may hold the line or even make some gains.

 

I certainly would like to see Trump brought to justice for the same reasons you do.

 

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Pariah said:

Everyone remember to dress warm tomorrow.

 

The forecast is calling for -45.

 

But only early in the morning, then expect a sharp change around noon.

Hey, who else is planning to watch the inauguration?  First time EVER I've said those words, but as long as I crash at a sane hour (by no means a foregone conclusion) I intend to.  I get most here stiff suffer the bane of the drinking classes, tho.  But you can hardly avoid it.  ABC and CBS plan 7 solid hours of coverage;  NBC's starting an hour later (still 2 hours ahead of time).  And all 3 plan prime-time events.  Fox is waiting til an hour before.  CNN is going beyond overboard, apparently...36 hours.  No thanks, I'll pass.  

[tkdguy]

I plan to watch the inauguration. The champagne is already being chilled.

[unclevlad]

1 minute ago, tkdguy said:

I plan to watch the inauguration. The champagne is already being chilled.

 

The Remy XO is set out by one of my good tasting glasses for me, but that'll be for after dinner.  Santa Fe 7K IPA with a lamb "fried rice" for dinner.